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Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?


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#181    Crikey

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:02 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 02 February 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

There is not a single mention of Jesus in anything but Christian sources from that period of history, nor for several hundred years later.  The earliest mention of Jesus in any of the ancient sources is an interpolation into the text of Josephus, clumsily and fraudulently inserted several centuries later.

Refs to Jesus outside the Bible-
Gospel Of Thomas
Gospel of Mary
    Gospel of Peter    
Gospel of Judas.
Mohammed said Jesus was a prophet and miracle man (Koran 2.253)
Roman historian Josephus, 1st cent AD- "Now there was about this time Jesus..He was a doer of wonderful works. He was the Christ.."
Babylonian Talmud tractate Sanhedrin, 43a,- "they hanged Yeshua (Jesus).."
Dead Sea Scroll 4Q246-"He shall be called the son of God, and they shall call him son of the Most High"
The Toledot Yeshu (the medieval Jewish anti-gospel) speaks at length about Jesus

In fact for centuries "scholars" used to say "Nazareth never existed in Jesus's time", but recent excavations have left them humiliated..:)


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#182    vladiscariot

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:24 PM

See, that's actually not why I became agnostic, feeling an internal contradiction. It was more external, I see and read people, thiests and atheists arguing back and forth and it comes down to 'no YOU prove it. No, YOU prove it'. I basically threw up my hands and thought 'who cares?!' We can't prove it, it takes faith either way to believe in something or to believe something isn't there.

I just don't care. There's perceived evil and good in the world, and a god(s) or no god hasn't changed it. Just be happy and make others happy.




same reason i have became  an apatheist.


#183    redhen

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:18 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 30 January 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

The discussion concerning the problem of evil in Christianity had me wondering if anyone thinks that atheism has a similar set of long-standing 'debates' or 'problems' that arise from its propositions?  I'm not restricting that question to just ideas that are similar to the problem of evil, I'm just using 'the problem of evil' as an example of a potential contradiction or problem internal to Christianity's propositions that has been argued and debated about for centuries now.  I'm guessing there aren't really any as the only main tenet of atheism is 'there is no god', but I was wondering if anyone thought there were some.  

I don't think there are any logical contradictions or weirdness, for the reason you give. I suppose there are some hard atheists, who know that God doesn't exist, and are eager to share their knowledge. But since the existence of God is unfalsifiable, it's a rather biased form of reasoning.

I also hold to the soft form of atheism, i.e. God has nothing to do with it. As in "my toaster manual is atheistic".

That said, there are some problems, at least some people see problems. Objective moral values go out the window with no God. Some people have a problem with this. I don't, I think our morality is an extension of what we see in other apes and chimps.

Then there are all the existential questions which remain. How and when did the universe begin? Is there a meaning to life? etc, etc,

The only real issue I have is the militant, hostile attitude shown by many atheists, with role models such as Richard Dawkins. Second to that (and probably because of it) is the prevalent attitude of scientism , which holds that "if science can't see it, measure it or analyze it, it's not real".

That of course is a self-refuting argument. How did they test for this claim? How was it empirically shown? This is not a scientific claim, it's more of a philosophical one. Which proves that one can actually come to knowledge without empirical evidence.


#184    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:40 AM

Very simply, belief in a god or gods requires further philosophical questions to be answered such as the nature of such a god, and why evil exists in a world  where god exists.

Non belief does not require, in fact disallows, any other philosophical questions about god and gods connection to the nature of the universe.

  None the less, any thinking human will wonder why "evil" exists, and any caring human will wonder what can be done to minimise it.

Atheism in itself answers no human questions It needs ancillary philosophicla belief and value posirtions to be an active force. When I was an atheist i was also an active secular humanist,  and had a significant ethical and moral code which I lived by. based on chosen basic value sets. Those sets were chosen using logic and philosophical reasoning.

They turned out to be quite similar to basic judaeo christian  values ethics and moralities as enshrined in western laws. That is not suprising, as I was a secular product of a society based on those values and laws.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#185    Crikey

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:49 AM

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Jesus said- "And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered" Matt 10:30

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Edited by Crikey, 03 February 2013 - 12:52 AM.


#186    Jinxdom

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:58 AM

I love the proof argument of something existing. I went to Job Corps a long time ago(in a galaxy far far away it seems)a while back, I tried to visit recently but I had a hard time getting in because I wasn't in the paperwork anymore. So by that same logic of Jesus existing in the world of Job Corps, i wouldn't exist(Yet here I am). I did finally get in and started to talk to people and heard stories of the things I apparently done. Easily could apply to Jesus.

I like little guide to life, when you feel bad pleasure yourself(mentally, physically, emotionally), when you feel good pleasure someone else(ask if it's ok first if you don't understand interacting with people)

Yeah DNA relates to binary,binary relates to numbers which relate to lines and circles, and lines and circles consist of just smaller points put together which are all just pictures to the old same story. Where you stop on that belief circle is what your beliefs about the universal truths are. Problems of logic occur when people try to connect the dots incorrectly. (Either from ignorance or arrogance)

Edited by Jinxdom, 03 February 2013 - 12:59 AM.


#187    Crikey

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:59 AM

View Postvladiscariot, on 02 February 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

......I see and read people, thiests and atheists arguing back and forth and it comes down to 'no YOU prove it. No, YOU prove it'.....

The fact remains, Jesus has been way out in front in the yellow jersey for 2000 years, not even Bradley Wiggins could catch him..:)

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#188    ranrod

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 01:46 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 February 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Very simply, belief in a god or gods requires further philosophical questions to be answered such as the nature of such a god, and why evil exists in a world  where god exists.

Non belief does not require, in fact disallows, any other philosophical questions about god and gods connection to the nature of the universe.

  None the less, any thinking human will wonder why "evil" exists, and any caring human will wonder what can be done to minimise it.

Atheism in itself answers no human questions It needs ancillary philosophicla belief and value posirtions to be an active force. When I was an atheist i was also an active secular humanist,  and had a significant ethical and moral code which I lived by. based on chosen basic value sets. Those sets were chosen using logic and philosophical reasoning.

They turned out to be quite similar to basic judaeo christian  values ethics and moralities as enshrined in western laws. That is not suprising, as I was a secular product of a society based on those values and laws.

Is there such a thing as evil?  ...it sucks when bad things happens to us seems to be the meaning most use.


#189    Tiggs

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:34 AM

View PostCrikey, on 02 February 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:


Refs to Jesus outside the Bible-
Gospel Of Thomas
Gospel of Mary
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Judas.
Mohammed said Jesus was a prophet and miracle man (Koran 2.253)
Roman historian Josephus, 1st cent AD- "Now there was about this time Jesus..He was a doer of wonderful works. He was the Christ.."
Babylonian Talmud tractate Sanhedrin, 43a,- "they hanged Yeshua (Jesus).."
Dead Sea Scroll 4Q246-"He shall be called the son of God, and they shall call him son of the Most High"
The Toledot Yeshu (the medieval Jewish anti-gospel) speaks at length about Jesus

And the dates for all of those would be?


#190    Rlyeh

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 06:11 AM

View PostCrikey, on 03 February 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

"I’m thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins" - Antony Flew

Quote

Jesus said- "And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered" Matt 10:30
Prove it. How many hairs are on my head?


#191    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 07:06 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 02 February 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Whether Paul knew about it or not, as soon as his writings hit the scene, if Jesus never existed, someone would have written about it.  There would have been controversy.  But in all the anti-Christian writing about Jesus in ancient times, and there were several writers who disagreed with Christianity, they argued against Jesus on many areas, but none of them argued against his existence.
What "anti-Christian" writings are you talking about?  You see nothing of this sort until well into the second century.  What you had in the first century was a percolating Jesus religion, something of a mixture of standard salvation mystery religions using Jewish messianic ideas.  The Synagogue rejected it out of hand, and it seems to have been mainly a Greek sort of thing with a lot of neo-Platonism in it.  Remember everything was written in street Greek, not Hebrew or Aramaic.

Quote

I'm not saying the gospels should be taken as historical fact.  I'm simply saying that every text has bias.  And so when reading the gospels, the Christian bias should be taken into consideration.  When reading Josephus the Jewish bias should be taken into consideration.  That kind of thing.
No problem there; the thing is who exactly were these Christians?  They seem to have only the most superficial understanding of Palestine and its culture, speak ordinary Greek (not the Greek one would learn in a school), carry a Greek philosophical tradition, and are very much like other Greek mystery cults that sprang up during the period.


#192    Zaphod222

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 07:21 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 02 February 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

Both sides of the board who get angry are trying to prove their case through negation.

You still don´t get it, do you. Both sides are not equal. I.e. claiming Elvis in my attic is not an equally plausible position than saying Elvis is dead.
You insist on assuming this false equivalency, just to prove your "point". Childish.

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#193    Jinxdom

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:55 AM

Whoops wrong button

Edited by Jinxdom, 03 February 2013 - 08:55 AM.


#194    Zaphod222

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:30 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 03 February 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Whoops wrong button

Well said

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#195    Crikey

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 01:30 PM

In 2009 British atheists (fronted by Dawkins natch) raised 150,000 GB pounds (235,000 US dollars) to splash these adverts on British buses-

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http://en.wikipedia....st_Bus_Campaign

Why did they do it? What purpose did it serve apart from feeding their 'demons within' to attack Religion?
And the wording is interesting as it says there's  "probably" no God. Aren't they sure?
Also it says "stop worrying". Are they admitting they're worried?
It attacks ALL religions, and muslims were none too pleased..;)
And the general public were saying the 150,000 was a disgraceful waste of money.

So all in all, the campaign seems to have backfired on them..:)





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