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Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?


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#241    White Crane Feather

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 04 February 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Nonsense. Communism is a belief system; very much like a religion, in fact.
Atheism did not lead to the brutal annexation of TIbet, the religion of communism did.
Sure, then the crusades where simply an impirialist action swell. That particular brand of communism is atheist. You dont get to seperate the two to pretend that atheism cant be  dangerous like anything else, especially  when part of the premis for the invasion is that religions are dangerous. Like it or not communist atheism exists, is dangerous, and is just a  bad as any zealot religion.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#242    scowl

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 04 February 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Nonsense. Communism is a belief system; very much like a religion, in fact.
Atheism did not lead to the brutal annexation of TIbet, the religion of communism did.

I've read Marx's Communist Manifesto and I don't recall anything about invading neighboring countries in it. In fact that's been something capitalist countries have been doing for most of history.


#243    White Crane Feather

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:39 PM

View Postscowl, on 04 February 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:



I've read Marx's Communist Manifesto and I don't recall anything about invading neighboring countries in it. In fact that's been something capitalist countries have been doing for most of history.
Nor does Adam smith. The point was that atheist can and do organize and come up with dangerous practices, venerated leaders, and are just as vulnerable to cultism as the religous are.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#244    Tiggs

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:47 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 04 February 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Nor does Adam smith. The point was that atheist can and do organize and come up with dangerous practices, venerated leaders, and are just as vulnerable to cultism as the religous are.

A political religion is not atheism. Atheists not following the demands of a political religion are shot just as much as those who follow any other religion under the same regime.


#245    scowl

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:05 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 04 February 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Nor does Adam smith. The point was that atheist can and do organize and come up with dangerous practices, venerated leaders, and are just as vulnerable to cultism as the religous are.
'

All Communists are atheists?


#246    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:36 AM

The real point here, to me, is that atheism is a belief that gods do not exist.

As such, it is like a belief that leprachauns do not exist. In itself it leads no where.it has no ongoing consequences.

A believer in leprechauns, on the other hand, must construct other beliefs based on that belief eg. appearance, habits, habitat, nature, etc. One who does not believe in gods comes to a full stop at that point. It cannot be destructive in itself but neither can it be constructive. Belief in something offers, and indeeds creates, the potental for both creative and destructive further beliefs.


In a way, that  i s why belief appeals to humans so much it leads somewhere. Non belief, while legitimate in itself, can lead nowhere without other constructs such as individual ethics and moralities, or constructs like social/secular humanism.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#247    Zaphod222

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:04 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 04 February 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Nor does Adam smith. The point was that atheist can and do organize and come up with dangerous practices, venerated leaders, and are just as vulnerable to cultism as the religous are.

Nobody said that an atheist can never engage in bad behaviour. That is a false premise. But at least atheists, by definition, reject the malevolent teachings of the various inhumane religions out there.

An atheist who thoroughly thinks out his position should obviously not fall for the pseudo-religion of communism either, but that is obviously not the case. Which shows that humans are not perfect.  But to claim that atheists are "just as vulnerable" is simply not true.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#248    Zaphod222

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:10 AM

View Postscowl, on 05 February 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

'
All Communists are atheists?

A question of definition, no? Since communist ideology expressly rejects what it calls "religion", they should be. However, since communism itself is a religion (even though a god-less one), I would argue that all communists are really theists in disguise.

Note that radical communist regimes have adopted all the trappings of radical theocratic regimes, with worshiped dead leaders, holy books, hoy sites, holy scriptures, rituals, and so on.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#249    Zaphod222

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:11 AM

View PostTiggs, on 04 February 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

A political religion is not atheism. Atheists not following the demands of a political religion are shot just as much as those who follow any other religion under the same regime.

Well said.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#250    White Crane Feather

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:59 AM

View PostTiggs, on 04 February 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:



A political religion is not atheism. Atheists not following the demands of a political religion are shot just as much as those who follow any other religion under the same regime.
But don't you see the double standard being applied? Spanish conquistadors were claiming lands in an imperialist fashion for the sake of god and country. Claiming Wealth in the name spreading Christianity, all with the Pope's blessings. China claims it all in the name of spreading stability through communism and atheism. I see no difference. Just difference in philosophy. Another contradiction among some atheists. They seem to want to be seperated from the religous so bad, that they ignore the fact, that atheists are just as vulnerable to human nature and problems  as the religous are.  It's really quit interesting to watch. If chinas government were Muslim instead of atheist it would be considered a theocracy, but oh no.... They are atheist, so it is just a political religion and has nothing to do with atheism.

Oh... So are Muslims & Christians in extreme political theocracies. Your example is the same everywhere.

Edited by Seeker79, 05 February 2013 - 06:01 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#251    David Henson

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:09 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 30 January 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

The discussion concerning the problem of evil in Christianity had me wondering if anyone thinks that atheism has a similar set of long-standing 'debates' or 'problems' that arise from its propositions?  I'm not restricting that question to just ideas that are similar to the problem of evil, I'm just using 'the problem of evil' as an example of a potential contradiction or problem internal to Christianity's propositions that has been argued and debated about for centuries now.  I'm guessing there aren't really any as the only main tenet of atheism is 'there is no god', but I was wondering if anyone thought there were some.  

As an atheist it's tempting to bring up in discussions about the problem of evil, what 'grace' means, what parts of the Bible should be taken figuratively, etc, that all of these debates evaporate if God does not exist, and I'm not sure that it is then replaced by similar thorny problems that are somewhat inherent in atheism.

The term atheist, as it is defined as simply as you put it, 'there is no god' is a big problem from the start. According to the Bible, which mentions many gods, some of whom were men, like Moses, Jesus and the Judges of Israel, the term atheist doesn't make sense. It falls right on it's face. In the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and even modern English, a god can be anything or anyone considered mighty or is venerated. Atheism has to dismiss it's own basic premise from the start. Then it has to limit the meaning of god to apply only to the supernatural, which is incorrect. Then it has to account for the fact that even if a god doesn't literally exist it is still a god. Zeus, for example, isn't a real being, either supernatural or natural, but is still a god. I don't believe in Zeus, I don't worship Zeus, Zeus doesn't exist, but Zeus is still a God.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

Wikipedia: Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Merriam Webster: God 1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind 2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality 3 : a person or thing of supreme value 4 : a powerful ruler.


Examples Of God:

1. Does she believe in God?
2. I pray to God that no one was seriously injured in the accident.
3. the gods and goddesses of ancient Egypt
4. a myth about the god of war
5. an offering for the gods
6. a professor who was regarded as a kind of god
7. a guitar god like Jimi Hendrix

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#252    White Crane Feather

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:11 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 05 February 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:



Nobody said that an atheist can never engage in bad behaviour. That is a false premise. But at least atheists, by definition, reject the malevolent teachings of the various inhumane religions out there.

An atheist who thoroughly thinks out his position should obviously not fall for the pseudo-religion of communism either, but that is obviously not the case. Which shows that humans are not perfect.  But to claim that atheists are "just as vulnerable" is simply not true.
You don't think that the religous and spiritual don't reject the various inhuman religions and practices out there?

A religous person who thoroughly thinks about it should not fall into communism either, but they do. ( yet again the same). In fact I would say this is more true the religious because COMMUNUSM ADVOCATES ATHEISM.

Wait!?!?!?

"Nobody said that an atheist can never engage in bad behaviour."

"Which shows that humans are not perfect.  "

"But to claim that atheists are "just as vulnerable" is simply not true."

Did you just say that all in one post? In a thread discussing contradictions in some atheists. How funny is that?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#253    Frank Merton

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:17 AM

Religions sure do seem to offer people an excuse for atrocious acts (such as burning people alive) when they are so inclined, but most religious people find their religion deters such things.  I think much the same can be said of atheism.

Most atheists have thought through the consequences of their view on personal morality, and there are lots of different approaches (as there are among theists too).  As a practical matter one finds far more believers in prisons and so on than atheists, although I would be reluctant to attribute that to their atheism but instead to the personality types more likely to become atheists.


#254    Paranoid Android

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:21 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 05 February 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Nobody said that an atheist can never engage in bad behaviour. That is a false premise. But at least atheists, by definition, reject the malevolent teachings of the various inhumane religions out there.

An atheist who thoroughly thinks out his position should obviously not fall for the pseudo-religion of communism either, but that is obviously not the case. Which shows that humans are not perfect.  But to claim that atheists are "just as vulnerable" is simply not true.
About six months ago, I met a person who's stated aim in life (he said this from his own mouth) was to *and I quote* - "rid the world of religions and religious people".  How is this any different to the outlook of a religious adherent?

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#255    Frank Merton

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:27 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 05 February 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

About six months ago, I met a person who's stated aim in life (he said this from his own mouth) was to *and I quote* - "rid the world of religions and religious people".  How is this any different to the outlook of a religious adherent?
It isn't.  Such people often come from fundamentalist backgrounds and had a struggle to break free of the guilt and fear such denominations use to hold onto adherents.  This produces anger and hate.





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