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Differences between Skeptic and Believer?


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#46    DONTEATUS

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:36 PM

She was a Hottie once ! LoL ! Love it Sakari ! :tu:

This is a Work in Progress!

#47    psyche101

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:03 AM

View Posttopsecretresearch, on 01 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

A lot of people on forums such as these claiming to be debunkers or skeptics are just doing anti-alien PR.

No, and nobody seems to run around claiming such, if it comes up in conversation, neither position tends to require clarification as such becomes self evident quite rapidly.

Anti Alien PR is just the believer in you. Gosh, needy phrases like that are like putting a floodlight on yourself. But a typical reaction to any real world assessment of the fanciful tales so many expect others to believe at face value.

View Posttopsecretresearch, on 01 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

The gist of their post is they have a problem with aliens.

You have terrible perception. The "gist" as you put it, is hardly a problem with Aliens. It is a problem with the wide eyed believers that think every light in the sky is an alien starship here to covertly make deals with the Government, It's a bit much really. Why are skeptics question avoided? Because it might make sense of the situation, and lets face it, some would rather never hear the truth.

There are two types of believer. One type is very respectable, and has the full support of the skeptical community, and is often quoted by skeptics.

View Posttopsecretresearch, on 01 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

If there was nothing alien to UFOs then a person would waste their time on it.

UFO does not = Alien. That's half the abovementioned problem.

View Posttopsecretresearch, on 01 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

A lot these people seems clueless about close encounter cases, alien abduction cases, and UFOs in general.

Clueless with regards to blind belief for sure. Heck you did not even know what a BEK was Mr Forefront of information. A skeptic had to inform you.

Edited by psyche101, 04 February 2013 - 04:06 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#48    psyche101

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:09 AM

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 02 February 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Skeptic, Debunker or BS Pusher. I don't care what anyone calling themselves. Anyone that bring up Venus as some sort of explanation for UFO deserves to be slap silly.

Yet there is one explanation in one thread here, that very much seems to describe Venus. Have you ever seen it? Venus I mean. It is quite spectacular, and at times seems to be more than a heavenly body. Even a telescope view I personally find rather fascinating.

I think you have three separate groups listed there, but I think it is the job of the woo woo crowd to push the idea that they are all one. Makes their job so much easier. Is it your opinion that every story should be taken at face value? How do you feel about the very fact that every UFO that has been explained to date has been explained in terrestrial terms?

Edited by psyche101, 04 February 2013 - 04:10 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#49    psyche101

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:30 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 01 February 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

The "proper" definition of the Skeptic, I think, should be that one does not necessarily take anything at anyone's word, but considers it for themselves and comes to a completely objective conclusion.

I would disagree with that, as a skeptic, my position is not to conclude a proposal, but to see the original claim in it's rawest form. Removal of all embellishment and personal interpretation to get the clearest picture available. Beyond that, many instances resolve themselves.

View PostLord Vetinari, on 01 February 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

That's entirely admirable, and is of course a principle that should be applied when watching or reading the News and the pronouncements of Politicians, every bit as much as to claims of the Paranormal.

But it is regarded as an attack to have a think.

View PostLord Vetinari, on 01 February 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

However, so often (particularly regarding the Paranormal) people can so easily adopt an attitude of automatic, kneejerk cynicism which makes them instantly deny anything at all that anyone claims to have witnessed, and reach for one of the all-purpose off-the-shelf Rational explanations; we all know the kinds: (for UFOs) Secret Military Aircraft; Ballons; Flares; or, they'll simply tell people that they're lying (not even that it may have been a misperception of something, they'll deny flatly that the person ever actually experienced anything at all. I'm afraid that's not sckepticism, and it demeans proper skepticism by calling it so. I very much think that skepticism should be applied just as much to "rational" explanations, and their probability should be weighed just as much as claims of the Extraordinary, and not just say "well, we know that [for example] Secret Aircrafte xist, so that's more probable, and I'm going to completely ignore any objections there may be to that as an explanation".

Hang on, black ops, balloons and for that matter, swamp gas, do exist. ET is imagined to answer a conundrum, who has seen ET and can say "Yep, that's ET"? How is the answer of "Black Op's " in a case where Black Projects have been put forth as nominees not qualified? Some people can say yes I have seen black ops, and that could well explain that. Or we can have a look at records and say "this bit matches with this bit" ort not. That is not a cover all, that is applying rational thought to a conundrum. Imagining mother ships is not. Now I know you will take that personal, but it is an illustration, in cases where black ops are proposed, the type of engine being used, the performance characteristics - where known, locations of the experiments are entered into for geographical location, and prototype vehicles are analysed. And you reckon saying "ohh, a mother ship could do that" is a great deal better do you - honestly? It actually strikes me as hypocritical because it is just made up on the spot - ship to small? Well, lets make up a bigger one and put it in it! Would believers accept such flimsy excuses for Black ops? No! They want to know who was involved, dates, experiments, engines, prototypes etc etc on what is regarded a secret project that we lucky to even have a glimpse at to begin with. We know that the CIA encouraged UFO reports where projects like the U2 are concerned, hell our own people have actually done this, yet it is till not good enough? What is?, Ohh, that's right, a mother ship. Much better. Good God man.
Or hey, liars, they do not exist on the UFO field at all. Not to mention the CIA encouraged exactly that above. Forget that some of the most prominent claims of their time came directly from liars. Bob Lazar. Mier. Icke, Greer, Lier, Kimbler Wade hell, the list is plain ridiculous  We have red handed liars, but hey, lets be PC and not consider this large contingent that has every right to lie about their "belief" and that we should not apply such labels, even though it is rife in the subject. And at times, plainer than the nose on one's face.

Instead, hey all believers, lets get together and purt rubbish on the skpetics, they use science to make us feel bad, so let's get 'em back and tell them we are onto this swamp gas and balloon story rubbish!

Yet as we know, the public themselves ousted themselves a UFO hero when they turned on Hynek and hammered him for his swamp gas explanation when in reality, it was perfectly valid, and came from the believers own best shot at ever getting any sort of an answer on this subject. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot. Hell, one thing ET could do without is his own fan club, even the cast of Star Trek has had enough fandom I believe. ET will be worn out before he arrives, and have people telling him what he is capable of when he arrives.

Any real and qualified objection is welcomed, as long as it has at least some structured thought. A brain fart is not really much use to anyone. But a little thought is too much to ask when fantasy is on the table it seems.

Edited by psyche101, 04 February 2013 - 04:37 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#50    psyche101

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:40 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 February 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

As a general rule, someone telling me something outre happened to them, especially on an anonymous board, is underwhelming.  Courtesy prevents me from implying they are lying or imagined it or whatever, so I tend to not pay them any attention and go on to other things.  Maybe it really happened, but the chances are overwhelmingly otherwise.

Much the same applies to organizations organized around these things; the profits to be made are considerable, and the con artists are always going to have a better show and story than whatever may be real.

So skepticism is the natural and really only possible honest response.  Its really too bad things are like this: I wonder what we miss because of all the frauds and kooks and airheads that are out there that give these phenomena a bad name.

Well said Frank. Nice to have you around of late mate.

I could not agree more. Some people seem to think they have seen something that wil overturn the status quo, and then turn on everyone when they are asked honest, open questions. Seem too many personal threads just like that.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who




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