Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

blasphemy of the holy spirit

bible study

  • Please log in to reply
38 replies to this topic

#16    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,952 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 03 February 2013 - 07:10 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 03 February 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Is it not compassionate to forgive someone and accept them despite whatever they've done?
To me that is the very definition of compassion.


#17    SpiritWriter

SpiritWriter

  • Member
  • 4,071 posts
  • Joined:21 Jun 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:in the ground

  • Hi! :-)

Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:33 AM

Thanks guys I actually finally get it.. it makes sense now... :) I didnt think I'd get a concrete answer or understanding which was reasonable but I did! :) Thanks again...

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#18    eight bits

eight bits

    ...

  • Member
  • 6,901 posts
  • Joined:24 May 2007

Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:35 AM

This is a well-known problem verse, of course. The immediate apologetic problem is to reconcile the possible revelation of an "unforgivable sin" with a variety of doctrines about  universal redemption of the repentant through Jesus.

My own interest is just historical, if the incident happened, then what's going on? Jesus continues the ministry of John the Baptist, whose central themes are redemption and forgiveness. It makes no sense historically for Jesus to propose an "unforgivable sin" if forgiveness is the point of his efforts. I end up with the same problem as the apologist.

IMO, Jesus is not proposing some kind of "Eleventh Commandment," Thou shalt not blapsheme against the Holy Spirit, but rather he is describing the actions of his hecklers. Although blasphemy covers a variety of activities, one of its specific meanings is to attribute the work of God to another agency. That is, of course, just what the hecklers have done, in spades. They have attributed Jesus' effectiveness as an exorcist to the chief of demons, rather than to God.

Within the repentance-for-redemption theme, then, Jesus is predicting that those blasphemers will not repent, ever. They surely don't "take it back" in the pericope itself. That they might never do so is at the very least the way to bet. "No repentance, no redemption" is fully cnsistent with the Baptist's ministry, and Jesus is at home with prophecy.

It is not the particular sin that is the problem, then, but the particular sinner who will be forever unrepentant that makes the specific act unforgivable. It is entirely consistent with Jewish prophetic formulation for a conditional message (If you don't repent, then X will happen) to be stated unconditionally (X will happen). Sometimes repentance does occur, possibly encouraged by the prophecy, and X doesn't happen. That is precisely what Jonah complains to God about.

Posted Image

#19    SpiritWriter

SpiritWriter

  • Member
  • 4,071 posts
  • Joined:21 Jun 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:in the ground

  • Hi! :-)

Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:39 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 03 February 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:



This does make pretty good sense. However there are many who have done this very thing and still come around to know Jesus Christ. Paul (or Saul at the time) being the prime example. They live their lives outright defying Christ, and then suddenly out of some radical occurance, they pull a complete 180 and become loving disciples of Christ.

I don't know what that verse means, but it doesn't matter too much to me. I don't follow the possibly doctored scriptures of the bible as absolute fact. I live my life by what I feel to be right. I just don't believe there is an "unforgivable sin" and that's that. If I go to Hell for that, then so be it, but that's what I believe. That's just what feels right.

Example:



Now if he didn't "blasphemy" the Holy Spirit then I don't know what will. Yet he turned around.

I just don't think God is the type to turn away someone who genuinely repents and wants to have a relationship with him simply because of one sin, no matter how evil...

I understood wolverines description as the continual rejection of the Holy Spirit...

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#20    SpiritWriter

SpiritWriter

  • Member
  • 4,071 posts
  • Joined:21 Jun 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:in the ground

  • Hi! :-)

Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:45 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 03 February 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

OP, are you concerned or worried about this scripture? If so, you likely would join a group comprised of millions of Christians throughout the historical record. Many of them went insane. Others embraced atheism after undergoing extreme emotional torment after they feared that they somehow blasphemed during the course of their lives.

Lol no I'm not worried. I love the Holy Spirit and know it knows my heart... Even if I was afraid of accidently commiting this act, which I'm not, I know god would know it was an accident.. but I dont think it is something one could commit accidentally...

Edit: Is that true, that people became athiest because they were afraid of commiting this sin? That sounds really wierd....

Edited by SpiritWriter, 03 February 2013 - 09:50 AM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#21    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 27,420 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

  • Paranoid Android... Gorram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Make it so!

Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:28 AM

The usual response to this is what has already been said - that "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" is rejection of Christ and therefore rejection of eternal life.  And while I understand that view, perhaps an alternative is worth consideration (this alternative may have been commented on earlier, I admit I have not read every post in this thread).  This alternative suggests that "blasphemy against the holy spirit" is far more than just a physical act.

To blaspheme the holy spirit not only requires rejection of God, but actually to reject God while in full knowledge of the truth that God exists and is as described in the gospels.  In this sense, the only way one can blaspheme the holy spirit is to physically acknowledge that God (the Christian God) is God, that Jesus is God, and that through the Holy Spirit, God has paved the way for us - BUT, despite KNOWING this, that person has still decided to say "**** that, I know what the truth is supposed to be but I dismiss it anyway".

This is not to be confused with the person who once believed in Jesus, and once believed in his power as God, but has been convinced otherwise and has thus chosen to say this is wrong.  Believing and then turning away from belief is different from believing and choosing to reject it while still believing.

I've used a similar term before, but I'll use it again here - "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - easier said than done".

~ PA

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#22    eight bits

eight bits

    ...

  • Member
  • 6,901 posts
  • Joined:24 May 2007

Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:10 PM

PA

The difficulty I have with that exegesis is that it is clear that the hecklers in the pericope have performed a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Whether anybody else could, they have. Whatever BAHS is argued to be in general, it must fit the only specific example presented to us.

Plainly, the hecklers do not know that Jesus is God, nor do they have much reason even to entertain the hypothesis. Exorcisms were a routine feature of First Century primary healthcare. Jesus' style was apparently unusual. He did not always exorcise in the name of a personal spiritual power. For example, invoking Solomon was a popular choice, and we know from Acts that Jesus himself would eventually get some use that way by non-Christian exorcists.

Speaking of Acts. we also know that when Peter cured a cripple in the Temple, what the trial court wanted to know was (4: 7) "By what power or by what name have you done this?" And of course, the very fact that Peter does much the same feat as Jesus, and yet Peter is not God, all by itself indicates that the witnesses to Jesus healing the blind mute cannot be faulted for failing to infer, with certainty no less, that Jesus is their God walking among them.

Anyway, Matthew doesn't say what power Jesus invoked, and it's entirely possible he didn't invoke any. A reasonable person seeing this, who believes that a demon has been exorcized, could wonder what power was invoked silently. Jesus says it's God, when it becomes an issue, but that isn't obvious to any observer.

Moreover, Jesus' hastily improvised argument for why the power couldn't possibly be the prince of demons is plainly fallacious. It is the burden of command that rank-and-file fighters must sometimes be sacrificed in order to win the fight. Supposedly, Christian martyrs sacrificed fighters, themselves, rather than conserve assets to keep their house standing. The explanation of this tactic is that the acceptance of martyrdom increased the long-term staying power of the church, enough to offset the immediate loss of members.

Surely the prince of demons is clever enough to see that, if it is actually true. If a human being can volunteer to die hideously in the belief that doing so serves some higher goal for his team, then a demon might equally well volunteer to accept homelessness for the same reason.

Posted Image

#23    notforgotten

notforgotten

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts
  • Joined:05 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tustin, Ca. USA

  • One day I saw my doppelganger and someone in heaven revealed to me that I had been cloned by aliens.

Posted 03 February 2013 - 05:56 PM

Webster's New World College Dictionary-

blasphemy: profane or contemptuous speech, writing or action concerning God or anything held as divine.


You would have to really hate the Holy Spirit to be guilty of this.


#24    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,952 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 03 February 2013 - 06:15 PM

It sounds as though maybe the Holy Spirit is the more important of the members of the Trinity, since to blaspheme against it is unforgivable sin, while blaspheming against the Father or the Son is not mentioned.


#25    notforgotten

notforgotten

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts
  • Joined:05 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tustin, Ca. USA

  • One day I saw my doppelganger and someone in heaven revealed to me that I had been cloned by aliens.

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 February 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

It sounds as though maybe the Holy Spirit is the more important of the members of the Trinity, since to blaspheme against it is unforgivable sin, while blaspheming against the Father or the Son is not mentioned.
The Holy Spirit is the lesser of the three members of the Holy Trinity. That's why the Father and Son protects him with this rule. The Holy Spirit is a beautiful spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit is the paranormal "orb."


#26    SpiritWriter

SpiritWriter

  • Member
  • 4,071 posts
  • Joined:21 Jun 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:in the ground

  • Hi! :-)

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:18 PM

View Postnotforgotten, on 03 February 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:


The Holy Spirit is the lesser of the three members of the Holy Trinity. That's why the Father and Son protects him with this rule. The Holy Spirit is a beautiful spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit is the paranormal "orb."

View Postnotforgotten, on 03 February 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:


The Holy Spirit is the lesser of the three members of the Holy Trinity. That's why the Father and Son protects him with this rule. The Holy Spirit is a beautiful spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit is the paranormal "orb."

Maybe this principle is similar to the least being the greatest in the kingdom of god..

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#27    solubus

solubus

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 15 posts
  • Joined:03 Feb 2013

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:30 PM

It is impossible. The sin is impossible to commit.

The Holy Spirit lives within the believer, and the Holy Spirit would not allow the sin to be committed as the Holy Spirit controls the believer.


#28    No Censorship

No Censorship

    Poltergeist

  • Validating
  • 2,784 posts
  • Joined:31 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:25 AM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 03 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Is that true, that people became athiest because they were afraid of commiting this sin? That sounds really wierd....

That's not what I meant. Maybe I should have worded it better than I did. I meant that some people embraced atheism after they thought that they blasphemed. This scripture damaged and/or destroyed their psyches. For example, some religious OCD sufferers fixated on this Biblical verse, and they had unpleasant and unwanted blasphemous thoughts. Some of them thought that they accidentally committed this sin. They were tormented so much that they rejected their faith due to their mistaken (important word) interpretation of the verse. Charles Stanley wrote two great books in which he explained the subject, which vexed many Christians through the years, very well.

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#29    The Silver Thong

The Silver Thong

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 30,342 posts
  • Joined:02 Dec 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary Alberta Canada

Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:32 AM

Blasphemy only exists if you want it to. It`s no more real then saying if you step on a crack you break your mothers back.  To hell with god I say, he made it he can stay there if he thinks 75% of the people can go there for his dumbass ignorance.

Sittin back drinkin beer watchin the world take it's course.


The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?

#30    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 27,420 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

  • Paranoid Android... Gorram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Make it so!

Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:07 AM

View Posteight bits, on 03 February 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

PA

The difficulty I have with that exegesis is that it is clear that the hecklers in the pericope have performed a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Whether anybody else could, they have. Whatever BAHS is argued to be in general, it must fit the only specific example presented to us.

Plainly, the hecklers do not know that Jesus is God, nor do they have much reason even to entertain the hypothesis.
Heh, had to search what a pericope was.  I learned a new word, thanks :)  Anyway, the text doesn't say that the "hecklers" to whom Jesus was referring to did commit the sin, he just said be careful to avoid it.  But with that said, as noted the usual response is that the sin of blasphemy against the holy spirit is the rejection of God in our life (not just once, but the continual rejection of God right up to the moment of death).  The context of the verse seems to support this interpretation, I was simply offering an alternative view that may not have been mentioned in the thread yet.

~ PA

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811





Also tagged with bible study

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users