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Honest question to atheists


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#61    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:43 PM

No one is certain -- it is all opinion.  The atheist does not think God exists; the agnostic thinks its an impossible question to reasonably form an opinion about.

In Newton's England someone who denied the Trinity was an "atheist."


#62    HerNibs

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:46 PM

*LOL*  This is silly.

I'm an atheist.  Full Stop.

I believe in no deities.

I also do not believe in Unicorns but if some one provided evidence of one then I'd have to change my stance wouldn't I?

Where in any definition of "atheist" does it say "will NEVER believe"?

Oh, I've done my research, I didn't decide last night to be an atheist.

Nibs

Just because it is a mystery to YOU doesn't make it unexplained.

STORM - a must watch - caution, some profanity and may cause you to experience reason.

#63    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:50 PM

OK I pull in my horns.  Atheism is to my mind the default position.  You don't believe something exists until there is enough evidence that it exists to persuade you.  I have never seen where agnosticism (as defined above) is a rational position, and I have had some knock-downs with agnostics who see atheism as the indefensible view.


#64    HerNibs

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:55 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 February 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

OK I pull in my horns.  Atheism is to my mind the default position.  You don't believe something exists until there is enough evidence that it exists to persuade you.  I have never seen where agnosticism (as defined above) is a rational position, and I have had some knock-downs with agnostics who see atheism as the indefensible view.

:)

I've had the same arguments.  The only person who has ever convinced me of a reasonable "agnostic" stance is my husband.  He calls himself an apathetic agnostic.

Doesn't know, doesn't care.

:)

Nibs

Just because it is a mystery to YOU doesn't make it unexplained.

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#65    eight bits

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:58 PM

Quote

Didn't find any definition for ignostic.

It is a "neologism," a new word wannabe. It is attested (googlebing it rather than "look it up"), and it has a community who use it consistently.

Time will tell whether it becomes a widely-accepted word, and if it does, more time still will pass before lexicographers include it in their dictionaries. At which point, there will be debates on internet forums (or whatever the latest thing is by then) about whether ignostics are "really" agnostics, to which some troll will contribute, "Who cares? My dictionary shows that agnostics are really atheists anyway."

Quote

IF evidence was presented to me then I would change my stance.  Doesn't make me any less of an atheist.

Of course not. What you've described is called a human being. Atheism, agnosticism and theism each refer to kinds of beliefs that human beings hold here and now, not in never-never land when hypothetically the uncertainty is resolved.

Quote

Did I pee in your Wheaties this morning?

So you're the one :) .

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#66    HerNibs

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:03 PM

View Posteight bits, on 07 February 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

It is a "neologism," a new word wannabe. It is attested (googlebing it rather than "look it up"), and it has a community who use it consistently.

Time will tell whether it becomes a widely-accepted word, and if it does, more time still will pass before lexicographers include it in their dictionaries. At which point, there will be debates on internet forums (or whatever the latest thing is by then) about whether ignostics are "really" agnostics, to which some troll will contribute, "Who cares? My dictionary shows that agnostics are really atheists anyway."

Ah.  A new word...another sword in the battle, just not sharpened yet.



Quote

Of course not. What you've described is called a human being. Atheism, agnosticism and theism each refer to kinds of beliefs that human beings hold here and now, not in never-never land when hypothetically the uncertainty is resolved.

Yeppers.


Quote

So you're the one :) .



I would NEVER do that to you!  You're one of my heroes on this board!

Milk or fresh cream all the way!!

Or pancakes.

Nibs

Just because it is a mystery to YOU doesn't make it unexplained.

STORM - a must watch - caution, some profanity and may cause you to experience reason.

#67    Einsteinium

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:03 PM

Buddhism is all about stopping the cycle of birth(rebirth)-death, there ARE heaven like realms, but they are temporary, and a being will inevitably be reborn in a different realm given enough time. So therefore the ultimate goal of Buddhism is to completely  'step out' of this cycle, and never be re-born or endure any form of suffering again. It is a VERY difficult concept to understand and I can see why some of you who posted in here do not seem to grasp it.

Now as for what I believe or wish? I think that if there is an after-life, then therefore there must be a 'before-life' as well. Meaning that you have existed before you were born and you do not remember it. Everything that has a beginning has an end. And so if your consciousness begins at birth or conception (or somewhere in between) or at 2 years old. If it begins, it therefore will end. On the other hand, if your consciousness exists already before you are born, and your body is like the car, with your consciousness driving the car, when that car is destroyed, you must therefore go wandering in some fashion until you find a new car/boat/plane to drive with your consciousness. If you do no not remember it happening, each time it would seem new to you. Is this the kind of everlasting life that you want? I honestly am agnostic in my after-life beliefs. I think that the Buddhist idea of a cyclical nature of rebirth/life/death makes sense, but so does the atheist view of death being the end of consciousness. However there have been some interesting cases of 'remembered past lives' that do give some evidence to the Buddhist ideas.

As for the Christian heaven, I believe that it makes the least sense, and is one of the most likely to have been fabricated by men and women who really really want this version of the afterlife to be true. It promises all the things humans want, reuniting with lost family and friends, everlasting punishment for those who whom you feel deserve it (note I said those whom you feel, because there would be no possible way for anyone to know what God judges in a person). Its all feel good, happy happy, clouds, rainbows, for ever and ever. "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" we apply this bit of common sense in our everyday lives and we are taken advantage of if we do not apply this common sense. Why should this common sense not be applied to religion and belief as well? I have also heard of the Christian heaven described as "everlasting newness" which would be awesome, but in my opinion again unlikely. It is more likely in my opinion that the Christian heaven perhaps is one of the lower Buddhist heavenly realms which are temporary, as I believe that if it has a beginning (you dying and arriving there) then therefore it must have an end.

I live my life as if it is my only life, and I strive to learn as much as I can, and to the best of my ability find truth, and rid myself of false notions and misconceptions.


#68    eight bits

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:12 PM

Aw, shucks, Nibs. Thank you for the kind words. I am a big fan of yours.

Keep fighting the good fight... and pancakes - yes!

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#69    blind pew

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:17 PM

View PostBlood_Sacrifice, on 06 February 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Do you ever wish for there to be an afterlife? Note I said "wish" not believe. I am not saying there has to be one, or it is logical/rational enough to believe in one. But do you wish for there to be some kind of existence after this "life", where all wrongs will be corrected and such that. This doesn't have to be the same afterlife concept of most theistic religions, but just some form of existence once you die. Do you wish there to be one?
Well hell ya, who the hell wouldn't. But alas it is not to be.


#70    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:39 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 February 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

OK I pull in my horns.  Atheism is to my mind the default position.  You don't believe something exists until there is enough evidence that it exists to persuade you.  I have never seen where agnosticism (as defined above) is a rational position, and I have had some knock-downs with agnostics who see atheism as the indefensible view.
I disagree. I think Somone can say I legitimately don't know and are torn between belief or not belief. Some choose only to accept a certain kind of evidence and that's fine if their choice gives them a probably negative, but there are othes that don't constrain themselves so and literally have not made up their minds. Atheism in my opinion is not a "default position".

Edited by Seeker79, 07 February 2013 - 07:40 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#71    freetoroam

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:42 PM

View PostHerNibs, on 07 February 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

*LOL*  This is silly.

I'm an atheist.  Full Stop.

I believe in no deities.

I also do not believe in Unicorns but if some one provided evidence of one then I'd have to change my stance wouldn't I?

Where in any definition of "atheist" does it say "will NEVER believe"?

Oh, I've done my research, I didn't decide last night to be an atheist.

Nibs
As I have said, Jesus would have been seen as an atheist because he did not believe in the same gods as the Romans. Obviously over time this has changed, mainly because after the catholics had done their utmost best to try and wipe out all the pagans and non believers, they decided that anyone who did not follow their god was a non believer in any god, considering the jews, muslims and christians are all supposed to believe in the same god, enter Abraham, then it is quite logical to see why over time anyone who does not believe in "THEIR GOD" the word atheist has come about to change.
There would be no need for the word ignostic if the atheists were non believers in god full stop.
I am not religious, I do not believe in ANY god, hence if I had to be classified, then it would be an ignostic.
But if you want to be an atheist, then thats fine.

Edited by freetoroam, 07 February 2013 - 07:45 PM.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#72    HerNibs

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:46 PM

Seriously, I can't understand how this is hard to understand -

Atheist - doesn't believe in any deity or supreme being.

Not "doesn't believe in ____ deity".

No deities.

Can you source "ignostic"?

Nibs

Just because it is a mystery to YOU doesn't make it unexplained.

STORM - a must watch - caution, some profanity and may cause you to experience reason.

#73    Paranoid Android

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:40 AM

View PostEinsteinium, on 07 February 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

As for the Christian heaven, I believe that it makes the least sense, and is one of the most likely to have been fabricated by men and women who really really want this version of the afterlife to be true. It promises all the things humans want, reuniting with lost family and friends, everlasting punishment for those who whom you feel deserve it (note I said those whom you feel, because there would be no possible way for anyone to know what God judges in a person). Its all feel good, happy happy, clouds, rainbows, for ever and ever....

....I have also heard of the Christian heaven described as "everlasting newness"
Hmm, is this what the Christian heaven is?  All things humans want?  feel good, happy happy, clouds, rainbows, forever????  Never heard of "everlasting newness", but also, is this what the Christian heaven is?????

This may be the popular depiction of heaven (particularly in Hollywood or art) but it is not what the Bible teaches.  The Bible actually says little about what heaven actually is!  Oh, it mentions it plenty of times, but never gives a description, except in the form of parables, which are by no means actual depictions of reality.

Just thought I'd point that out,

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#74    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:12 AM

View PostEinsteinium, on 07 February 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Buddhism is all about stopping the cycle of birth(rebirth)-death, there ARE heaven like realms, but they are temporary, and a being will inevitably be reborn in a different realm given enough time. So therefore the ultimate goal of Buddhism is to completely  'step out' of this cycle, and never be re-born or endure any form of suffering again. It is a VERY difficult concept to understand and I can see why some of you who posted in here do not seem to grasp it.

Now as for what I believe or wish? I think that if there is an after-life, then therefore there must be a 'before-life' as well. Meaning that you have existed before you were born and you do not remember it. Everything that has a beginning has an end. And so if your consciousness begins at birth or conception (or somewhere in between) or at 2 years old. If it begins, it therefore will end. On the other hand, if your consciousness exists already before you are born, and your body is like the car, with your consciousness driving the car, when that car is destroyed, you must therefore go wandering in some fashion until you find a new car/boat/plane to drive with your consciousness. If you do no not remember it happening, each time it would seem new to you. Is this the kind of everlasting life that you want? I honestly am agnostic in my after-life beliefs. I think that the Buddhist idea of a cyclical nature of rebirth/life/death makes sense, but so does the atheist view of death being the end of consciousness. However there have been some interesting cases of 'remembered past lives' that do give some evidence to the Buddhist ideas.

As for the Christian heaven, I believe that it makes the least sense, and is one of the most likely to have been fabricated by men and women who really really want this version of the afterlife to be true. It promises all the things humans want, reuniting with lost family and friends, everlasting punishment for those who whom you feel deserve it (note I said those whom you feel, because there would be no possible way for anyone to know what God judges in a person). Its all feel good, happy happy, clouds, rainbows, for ever and ever. "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" we apply this bit of common sense in our everyday lives and we are taken advantage of if we do not apply this common sense. Why should this common sense not be applied to religion and belief as well? I have also heard of the Christian heaven described as "everlasting newness" which would be awesome, but in my opinion again unlikely. It is more likely in my opinion that the Christian heaven perhaps is one of the lower Buddhist heavenly realms which are temporary, as I believe that if it has a beginning (you dying and arriving there) then therefore it must have an end.

I live my life as if it is my only life, and I strive to learn as much as I can, and to the best of my ability find truth, and rid myself of false notions and misconceptions.

The biggest problem I find with Buddhism is simply that it's just as purposeless as atheism. At least the Christian afterlife no matter how unbelievable you may assume it to be, has purpose where as Buddhism and atheism does not. That's where I get hung up on most eastern and paganistic religions is the lack of true purpose.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#75    freetoroam

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:35 AM

View PostHerNibs, on 07 February 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Seriously, I can't understand how this is hard to understand -

Atheist - doesn't believe in any deity or supreme being.

Not "doesn't believe in ____ deity".

No deities.

Can you source "ignostic"?

Nibs
Did you see my earlier post on atheists?

ignostic (plural ignostics)
  • one who holds to ignosticism.
  • one who holds the theory that there is nothing that can be thought of that the word "God" (capitalized) or the words "Yahweh" and "Allah" could refer to. Also called "theological noncognitivist
  • this term was not created until the 60`s.


I go back to original meaning of atheism:
The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)", used as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshipped by the larger society

Edited by freetoroam, 08 February 2013 - 06:37 AM.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.




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