182 replies to this topic

[Seeker79]

Jor-el, on 07 February 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Or they could be real entities that do not have humanities best interest at heart.

There is always a Mabey. Haveing looked what most people call demons square in the face and overcome them, I'm inclined on an experiential basis rather than theoretical one to say that in my opinion it's highly unlikely.

Edited by Seeker79, 07 February 2013 - 09:36 PM.

[RavenHawk]

Jor-el, on 07 February 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Let me put it to you that demons are not fallen angels, as a matter of fact they aren't angels of any sort and never were.

I would have said that Demons were fallen angels??  At least a unix process ;-)

Question: "What does the Bible say about demons?"

Answer: Revelation 12:9 is the clearest scripture on the identity of demons, "The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." Satan's fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-15. Revelation 12:4 seems to indicate that Satan took one-third of the angels with him when he sinned. Jude 6 mentions angels who sinned. The Bible indicates that the demons are fallen angels who, along with Satan, rebelled against God.

Satan and his demons now look to destroy and deceive all those who follow and worship God (1 Peter 5:8; 2 Corinthians 11:14-15). The demons are described as evil spirits (Matthew 10:1), unclean spirits (Mark 1:27), and angels of Satan (Revelation 12:9). Satan and his demons deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4), attack Christians (2 Corinthians 12:7; 1 Peter 5:8), and combat the holy angels (Revelation 12:4-9). Demons are spiritual beings, but they can appear in physical forms (2 Corinthians 11:14-15). The demons/fallen angels are enemies of God, but they are defeated enemies. Greater is He who is in us, than those who are in the world (1 John 4:4).

So either you are wrong or we're just not understanding what you are getting at??  Now I suppose that there are other creatures that are not angels and were followers of Lucifer.  The Angel being the highest of heavenly hosts.  There could be other minions and sub creatures and perhaps those are the demons you are referring to??

[braveone2u]

Jor-el, on 07 February 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Let me put it to you that demons are not fallen angels, as a matter of fact they aren't angels of any sort and never were.

Hi Jor-el,

I've never seen a demon, at least not like the picture example. I have, however, experienced "shadow beings" in the afterlife. I call them "shadow beings" because they lack luminosity. Did I sense "evil" while in their presence? No, but I did feel a sense of alarm because of their "awesome" presence.

Peace.

[SpiritWriter]

As far as I believe they are evil spirits sent by the devil to keep people bound in "sin" if you will, or to keep them in fear either subtly or to a major degree. I have seen them and delt with them, perhaps not to the extent of some others out here but have seen enough to know they exist. I believe when a person is bound by them they are unaware of it but as soon as they become aware can be released from it, usually with faith, a purposeful will, and effort. This can be seen psychologically as well.. as the spirit realm is multi-faceted and complex. Are they fallen angels? Thats the rumor.. but it seems to me they come from hell. If we say god is in everything, but yet he is apart from evil, then I can get the diagnosis of the fallen angel concept. But I do believe god is in charge of everything and allows these devils to work.. why? To test us.. to grow us up.. to challenge us and build our character.. to get us to trust him for deliverance.. to get us to face ourselves or the so called "evil" that is within us, to learn to fight principalities and be overcomers...? ? I sure dont know everything.. but I do know you can find these characters harrasing the children of god, the would be saints of god. The most notable form in my opinion (behind the scene demonic work) is in abusive/controlling/violent people/ this as an assault on an abused, drug addicts and the mentally ill... and then there are some cases were a person starts making the devil thier god, not subtly but consiously.. more subtly the devils work is every damn where...

Good is everywhere too.... the problem with demons is not enough people will face them and they've infiltrated every powerful structure that rules the world.

Thats why John the Baptist was calling from the wilderness.. repent the kingdom of god is at hand. And then Jesus came and said, you must be born again in the spirit. But nobody wanted to listen.

Lol.. I laugh at myself because I sound so religous but really I'm not..

[Paranoid Android]

RavenHawk, on 07 February 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

I would have said that Demons were fallen angels??  At least a unix process ;-)

Question: "What does the Bible say about demons?"

Answer: Revelation 12:9....

...So either you are wrong or we're just not understanding what you are getting at??  Now I suppose that there are other creatures that are not angels and were followers of Lucifer.  The Angel being the highest of heavenly hosts.  There could be other minions and sub creatures and perhaps those are the demons you are referring to??

So one paragraph from a piece of apocalyptic literature known for symbolism and imagery is enough evidence to allow Christians to definitely say that the dragon is Satan and the stars who were swiped from heaven are the demons/fallen angels?  For me as a Bible-believing Christian, I cannot base an entire doctrine on such flimsy scripture.

[David Henson]

J. K., on 07 February 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

How do you know this?

He doesn't. He is wrong in fact.

[Jor-el]

Seeker79, on 07 February 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

There is always a Mabey. Haveing looked what most people call demons square in the face and overcome them, I'm inclined on an experiential basis rather than theoretical one to say that in my opinion it's highly unlikely.

As you say, there is always a maybe...

[CRIPTIC CHAMELEON]

Simple answer to your question Jor-el MOTHER in LAWS.  

[Jor-el]

RavenHawk, on 07 February 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

I would have said that Demons were fallen angels??  At least a unix process ;-)

Question: "What does the Bible say about demons?"

Yes let us see what these verses really say, instead of reading into them what isn't there.

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Answer: Revelation 12:9 is the clearest scripture on the identity of demons, "The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.
He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."

The verse in question does indeed say such a thing, what it also says is WHEN this event happened within its own context of Chapter 12.

The Woman and the Dragon

12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. ² She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. ³ Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. ⁴ Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. ⁵ She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”^[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. ⁶ The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
⁷ Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. ⁸ But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. ⁹ The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Look closely please to the context, the Dragon was flung to the Earth when the woman was pregnant, Correct?

Who is the woman?

The woman is the nation of Israel. Israel gave birth to the Messiah.

The Great Dragon is the imagery of Satan. Due to his actions a 3rd of the Heavenly host turned against God. His attempts to destroy Israel are recorded in history, and the attempt to kill the Messiah is related in the bible, through Herods assasination of many children in Bethlehem, most of them being of the Tribe of Judah and descendents of David.

When through Jesus triumph on the cross, he saw that he was defeated he tried to destroy Israel. He succeeded in destroying the Temple and Jerusalem, and he even managed to destroy the nation itself, with the Jews dispersed all over the world.

Now here is the thing, the events related here started a litle over 2000 years ago, are you telling me that there were no demons before the angels and Satan were thrown out of heaven at that time?

Are you willing to tell us all that there were no demons before Jesus?

Because effectively, if you want to use this text to defend angels as the origin of Demons, that is what you WILL have to say.

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Satan's fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-15.

Yes it is, but my question to you, is where does it say anywhere in the text that Satan is a demon?

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Revelation 12:4 seems to indicate that Satan took one-third of the angels with him when he sinned.

Where does it say anywhere that the 3rd of the angels cast out of heaven with him are demons or became demons?

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Jude 6 mentions angels who sinned.

Yes it does, but let ask ouselves some questions...

What was their sin?

The sin is described in the context of the text, that sin is sexual relations with human women.

Do you remember Genesis 6?

The sons of God of Genesis 6 are the "angels" who are kept in darkness and bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. That is exactly what the verse says, so tell me how these angels are demons, demons roam the Earth, they are not bound anywhere. Remember, at this particular moment in time, Hell is empty, totally and utterly empty.

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The Bible indicates that the demons are fallen angels who, along with Satan, rebelled against God.

Where again does it indicate anything of the kind? This is what I mean by huge assumptions In every single place you quoted those beings are continually referred to as angels, every single time. Not one are they ever referred to as demons.

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Satan and his demons now look to destroy and deceive all those who follow and worship God (1 Peter 5:8; 2 Corinthians 11:14-15).

Your assumptions are putting words where there aren't any.


1 Peter 5:8


⁸ Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15


¹⁴ And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. ¹⁵ It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Notice how both texts do not even mention demons by at all, yet you are adding to the text to justify your belief in the tradition. They speak uniquely of Satan and only Satan.

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The demons are described as evil spirits (Matthew 10:1), unclean spirits (Mark 1:27),

Yes they are, but do you know why they are so designated?

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and angels of Satan (Revelation 12:9).

Only by assumption you have nothing linking the two. Not one verse says or implies that demons are fallen angels, and the use of this verse if you stand by that view relegates the origin of demons to the time Jesus was born.

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Satan and his demons deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4), attack Christians (2 Corinthians 12:7; 1 Peter 5:8), and combat the holy angels (Revelation 12:4-9). Demons are spiritual beings, but they can appear in physical forms (2 Corinthians 11:14-15). The demons/fallen angels are enemies of God, but they are defeated enemies. Greater is He who is in us, than those who are in the world (1 John 4:4).

2 Corinthians 4:4


⁴ The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 Corinthians 12:7


⁷ or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

1 Peter 5:8


⁸ Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

Revelation 12:4-9 I have previously mentioned, and again, no mention of demons, they are called angels, even when fighting against God and his angels. What this means quite simply is that we have two factions of angels, not once are the angels who followed Satan called demons.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15, I have also previously mentioned, I don't need to repeat what I said earlier.

Notice how NONE of these verses mention demons at all!!! Not one word. They are all about Satan himself. 2 Corinthians mentions a messenger of Satan, but no one knows what form this thorn took. Was it a person who dogged his footsteps going behind Pauls back, destroying his work, or was it an infirmity of some kind, but not once is this "messenger" called a demon.

1 John 4:4 is irrelevant to the discussion since it does not mention demons or Satan in any way.

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So either you are wrong or we're just not understanding what you are getting at??  Now I suppose that there are other creatures that are not angels and were followers of Lucifer.  The Angel being the highest of heavenly hosts.  There could be other minions and sub creatures and perhaps those are the demons you are referring to??

As you can see, the text you took from the internet has not helped you, it has actually strengthened my position that demons are not fallen angels. They are two different types of being, totally independent of one another. We have mixed and confused the bible in such a way that we no longer know what we are saying when we tell the story of demons being angels who rebelled along with Satan.

What we actually have are different types of spiritual beings, we have "bene elohim", the sons of God, who we can not call angels, they are the gods of the ancient world of polytheism and were literally "sons of God", who served God by being the gods of the nations as God himself ordered. We have demons, a spiritual being that came into existence at the time of the Great flood, since they are the non corporeal spirits of the ancient nephilim, when they were destroyed. We have angels and archangels, a different class of spirtiual being who serve in Gods administration of the universe which we call the Divine Council along with the "bene elohim".

And these are just the ones we know about.

[Jor-el]

Paranoid Android, on 08 February 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

So one paragraph from a piece of apocalyptic literature known for symbolism and imagery is enough evidence to allow Christians to definitely say that the dragon is Satan and the stars who were swiped from heaven are the demons/fallen angels?  For me as a Bible-believing Christian, I cannot base an entire doctrine on such flimsy scripture.

You are correct PA, the assumptions are there and these texts are then used to justify what people already believe instead of being guided by what is written. Unfortunately this belief is prevalent throughout the Churches of God. Most of my bretheren from the church in fact preach exactly this kind of assumption.

[Jor-el]

David Henson, on 08 February 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

He doesn't. He is wrong in fact.

Truly?
Since your statement has no corroboration at all except a denial of acceptance, I cannot give it credence.

[Jor-el]

CRIPTIC CHAMELEON, on 08 February 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Simple answer to your question Jor-el MOTHER in LAWS.  

  I Refuse To Answer On The Grounds That I May Incriminate Myself Or Get My Butt Kicked By Loved Ones...

[J. K.]

Jor-El, what is your take on this passage?

11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:11-12

Whom do you identify as those beings mentioned here?

[Jor-el]

J. K., on 08 February 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

Jor-El, what is your take on this passage?

11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:11-12

Whom do you identify as those beings mentioned here?

They are the faction who are fighting Gods plans and purpose for humanity. They are the bene elohim who corrupted themselves and were judged as exemplified in Psalm 82. We habitually and generically call them demons, but that is an incorrect assumption on our part, since demons are a specific class of being who serve the powers and principalites who still command the Earth.

God himself, when he gave humanity over to its own idolatry and worship of created beings, appointed 70 "bene elohim" to rule and guide humanity since they had rejected him.

We can find evidence of this in a number of verses...

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

9 For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

To confirm the above we have another.

Deuteronomy 4:19

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly host—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

Since the "Host of heaven" refers to these "sons of God". They are essentially the same. Not all sons of God are corrupt but some of them are.

The Old Testament recognizes the existence of multiple gods who are real enough, because they not only tempt us, but arouse the jealously and wrath of God (Ex 20:3, 20:13, Lev 19:4, Deut 5:7, 6:14, 7:4, 8:19, 11:16, 11:28, 13:3, 13:7, 13:14, 17:3, 18:20, 28:14, 28:36, 28:64, 29:25, 30:17, 31: 16, 31:18, 31:20). Yahweh rules over the other gods (Ex 18:11, Deut 7:10) which is also recognized in the other terms used to identify Him, such as El Elyon, The most High God. (by implication, that means there are other lesser gods).

Deuteronomy 32:17

17 They sacrificed to demons (sheddim), not God (Eloah) - gods (elohim) they had not known, gods (elohim) that recently appeared, gods (elohim) your fathers did not fear.

These are the Princes and the the principalities are the divisions of the Earth into regions they control and rule. They all serve Satan and his goals, which is the total destruction of mankind and humanites permanent removal from the Rulership and Stewardship of Earth.

What changed since they were assigned to rule and guide humanity?

They became corrupt and were convinced by Satans arguments against Gods plan and purpose for humanity.

We find evidence of this in Pslam 82.

¹ God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

² “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah

³ Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.

⁴ Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

⁵ They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

⁶ I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;

⁷ nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”

⁸ Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations

Edited by Jor-el, 08 February 2013 - 10:43 PM.

[David Henson]

Jor-el, on 08 February 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

Truly?
Since your statement has no corroboration at all except a denial of acceptance, I cannot give it credence.

Well, then, lets give you something to work with.

The common Greek word for demon (daimon) occurs only once in the Christian Scriptures. At Matthew 8:31: So the demons began to entreat him, saying: "If you expel us, send us forth into the herd of swine." Elsewhere the Greek daimonion is used, or pneuma, the Greek word for spirit is applied to spirit creatures. (Matthew 8:16) These spirit creatures are referred to with such terms as wicked, unclean, speechless and deaf. (Lu 7:21; Matthew 10:1 / Mark 9:17, 25) Satan is the ruler of the Demons. (Matthew 12:24, 26) The angels who forsook their natural position of spirit creatures, mating with human women and producing the Nephilim, were demons. Their human bodies would have drowned so they dematerialized and returned to heaven where they are kept in a condition of debasement. (Genesis 6:1-4 / Jude 1:6 / 1 Peter 3:19-20 / 2 Peter 2:4 / Ephesians 6:11-12) These demons appear elsewhere in possessions. (Matthew 12:43-45 / Luke 8:27-33)

Demons are spirit creatures.

Edited by David Henson, 08 February 2013 - 11:58 PM.