423 replies to this topic

[The New Richard Nixon]

Tesla II, on 18 February 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

LOL but no Aliens are just that...Aliens

[DONTEATUS]

Thats about as close to a Alien As Humans Get ! Zappadoplooeuses what eva !

[Detective Mystery 2013]

DBunker, on 18 February 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Thats just the kicker aint it!!?? All it takes for some people to believe in a paranormal phenomenon is someone else flapping their lipps.

Me, I need better evidence than that. THAT is where science comes in.

If we were to believe in all the stories out there, the world would be a place filled to the rim with the weirdest stuff we can only read about on fringe/woo woo websites of the internet.

First, I don't believe all claims of the paranormal. Second, I know and trust this man. Third, his reactions can't be faked. Science is vital to society, but let's not pretend that it's the answer to all questions.

[Detective Mystery 2013]

Tesla II, on 17 February 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

How can two mix? There is no firm proof of demons i've seen some strange stuff but nothing demon like...but it appeared as the case of demon. Aliens havent come here as much as people claim.. at i didnt see any so far.or read about any offical of credible case. But if we can speculate...

Maybe it is other way around That demons are ETs that sounds very weird, two very hard words in one sentence.

But this is hard to discuss .. No proof of any of those so far, if you have any please do post!

Evidence would be automatically rejected by debunkers. They wouldn't even look at it. Skeptics would have open minds, though, and they would go where the proof took them, even if it injured their sacred cows. True skeptics don't worship at the altars of Dawkins and Randi.

[Detective Mystery 2013]

Blueogre2, on 18 February 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

ET's and demons eh? Well I think that it is quite possible that ET's exist on other worlds but as far as the whole alien abduction and ufo sightings go, I think it's clearly evil spirits

It's possible that some of them are staged by employees of alphabet agencies or the armed services. Some witnesses claim that.

[psyche101]

Detective Mystery 2013, on 15 February 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

I apologize. I meant to reply to your post, which was quite thoughtful. I went on a "post and reply" spree in which I quickly wrote random thoughts. Your message deserved more time.

Fair enough, I have seen so many people in here of late that run form real answers I made the wrong assumption.

Detective Mystery 2013, on 15 February 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

You mentioned one study, and that didn't serve as a good proxy for events that took place over a wide swath of space and time.

Why not? It's done by one of the foremost group involved in this research on the planet. They know more than anyone of us about the subject in total. And more so than the clamants themselves. And much more than anyone in antiquity.

Detective Mystery 2013, on 15 February 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

If varied people experienced the same events, independent of each other, they likely took place.

Not necessarily, many people claimed to have positively identified religious figures at the Fatima event.

Detective Mystery 2013, on 15 February 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

This was especially true when they had no idea about the common event before they experienced it. Added to that, I believed people, who experienced paranormal events, because I trusted them. Their nonverbal communication was as convincing as their words. Some of them had no knowledge or understanding of the events before they experienced them. They had no references from which to draw ideas that might skew their interpretations of them. Experiments often are beneficial to understanding human nature, but many of them are poor substitutions for real life.

The human psyche should be more than adequate to answer the common spectre image that seems to form the basis for most evil monsters in superstition and legend? Do you know of any cases whereby physical evidence such as marking cuts or bruises accompany and corroborate any such claim? Genuine ones I mean, ones that can be attributed to an unknown procedure, like stitching with unknown silk, or some type of rapid heal evidence? Not someone waking up and going "I did not have that scratch yesterday, must be alienz".

Edited by psyche101, 19 February 2013 - 04:10 AM.

[psyche101]

Detective Mystery 2013, on 15 February 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

No, not all of my beliefs are based on that. Like I said, I don't think that I've ever heard or seen a demon or an extraterrestrial, but I believe some people who claim to have done so. I don't believe that the two beings are the same, but I think that they exist. I'm respectful of the opinions of individuals who disagree with my personal views, though. It's fine if someone believes that demons and extraterrestrials are best left to fables and fiction. It's fine if someone believes that aliens are entities who range from the literal angelic to the literal demonic. We're all entitled to our opinions (not facts, I know). BTW, honesty of witnesses plays an important role too.

Well I know what an alien is, but a demon is up to the individual, what exactly is a common demon considered to be, and where do they come from? Even the many Bibles have some conflict here, how can one demon cover all faiths?

[Detective Mystery 2013]

psyche101, on 19 February 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Well I know what an alien is, but a demon is up to the individual, what exactly is a common demon considered to be, and where do they come from? Even the many Bibles have some conflict here, how can one demon cover all faiths?

A congregation witnessed the same beings at the same time during an exorcism. I didn't see this, but an honest and trusted person confirmed that it happened. A second person did too. This occurrence was an example of what I meant in an earlier post. The same event was witnessed by a large number of people at the same place and same time. This was not Fatima. As for the crime witnesses in my earlier post, the description of the criminal was extremely dramatic so it would not be confusing. The criminal was a tall Latino with a hook. Your cited study was valid in that it demonstrated the very real problem of untrustworthy accounts made by eyewitnesses. It wasn't applicable to my particular illustration, though. The witnesses' specificity cast doubt on the contradictory tales in my example. IOW, the accounts about the Black man and the White woman were rendered to be demonstrably false due to the number of people who witnessed something else entirely. They were flukes or lies. The rest of the witnesses' descriptions exactly matched. If I was a cop, I would buy their descriptions, and I would look for a tall Latino with a hook for a hand. If there were varying descriptions of Latinos with no abnormalities, that would be another thing.

[Detective Mystery 2013]

psyche101, on 19 February 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Well I know what an alien is, but a demon is up to the individual, what exactly is a common demon considered to be, and where do they come from? Even the many Bibles have some conflict here, how can one demon cover all faiths?

BTW, I tried to cover varied bases in the other post. I understand that it might be confusing. I'll list my main points in case my earlier post reads like a WTF head-scratcher. I'm distracted and rushed, so the following points illustrate my views.

.Was the individual trustworthy?
.Did large numbers of people see the same thing at the same place and the same time?
.Are there identical accounts throughout the historical record, especially ones that traverse eras, locales, expectations, etc.?
.Did I experience it?

[psyche101]

Detective Mystery 2013, on 19 February 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

A congregation witnessed the same beings at the same time during an exorcism. I didn't see this, but an honest and trusted person confirmed that it happened. A second person did too. This occurrence was an example of what I meant in an earlier post. The same event was witnessed by a large number of people at the same place and same time. This was not Fatima. As for the crime witnesses in my earlier post, the description of the criminal was extremely dramatic so it would not be confusing. The criminal was a tall Latino with a hook. Your cited study was valid in that it demonstrated the very real problem of untrustworthy accounts made by eyewitnesses. It wasn't applicable to my particular illustration, though. The witnesses' specificity cast doubt on the contradictory tales in my example. IOW, the accounts about the Black man and the White woman were rendered to be demonstrably false due to the number of people who witnessed something else entirely. They were flukes or lies. The rest of the witnesses' descriptions exactly matched. If I was a cop, I would buy their descriptions, and I would look for a tall Latino with a hook for a hand. If there were varying descriptions of Latinos with no abnormalities, that would be another thing.

As you say, people at Fatima saw different things, yet many corroborated each other, how would this not be a congregation of groups that experience what your case did?

[psyche101]

Detective Mystery 2013, on 19 February 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

BTW, I tried to cover varied bases in the other post. I understand that it might be confusing. I'll list my main points in case my earlier post reads like a WTF head-scratcher. I'm distracted and rushed, so the following points illustrate my views.

.Was the individual trustworthy?
.Did large numbers of people see the same thing at the same place and the same time?
.Are there identical accounts throughout the historical record, especially ones that traverse eras, locales, expectations, etc.?
.Did I experience it?

What about cultural influences? Do you not feel they play a part, specifically referring to Frank earlier in the thread who mentioned that in his part of the world, Aliens have no power? In many cases such as Australian Indigenous creatures exist which are terrifying, yet earthly. This indicates that some cultures are visited by demons and some by aliens does it not?

To me what stands out is the common denominator. Man.

[Detective Mystery 2013]

psyche101, on 19 February 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

As you say, people at Fatima saw different things, yet many corroborated each other, how would this not be a congregation of groups that experience what your case did?

They were completely different experiences. There were many variations. The exorcism took place in a small church in front of a congregation who witnessed black beings, like clouds or smoke, leave a possessed person. It wasn't some kind of solar event that took place outdoors. All of the congregation agreed on what they experienced. The pastor looked distressed and disturbed when I mentioned the event to him. It would be extremely difficult to fake that kind of physical reaction. There were a few other factors that I didn't mention because I didn't want to be identified (unlikely as it was).

[Detective Mystery 2013]

psyche101, on 19 February 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

What about cultural influences? Do you not feel they play a part, specifically referring to Frank earlier in the thread who mentioned that in his part of the world, Aliens have no power? In many cases such as Australian Indigenous creatures exist which are terrifying, yet earthly. This indicates that some cultures are visited by demons and some by aliens does it not?

To me what stands out is the common denominator. Man.

I definitely agree that culture plays a huge role. We're almost on the same page there. In the cases of alleged demons and alleged extraterrestrials, it's almost impossible to argue that culture is unimportant. That said, there are a relatively few cases in which a cigar is just a cigar. For instance, I believe that the pastor and his congregation are truthful. I know that religion is the elephant in the church, but the malignant spiritual entities have "physical" forms that can be verified by a multitude of close, observant (or not) witnesses. This is one of those exceptions to the woo rule. I realize that some "exorcisms" are nothing but histrionic shenanigans, misinterpretations of certain factors when it's not downright chicanery.

[psyche101]

Detective Mystery 2013, on 20 February 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

They were completely different experiences. There were many variations. The exorcism took place in a small church in front of a congregation who witnessed black beings, like clouds or smoke, leave a possessed person. It wasn't some kind of solar event that took place outdoors. All of the congregation agreed on what they experienced. The pastor looked distressed and disturbed when I mentioned the event to him. It would be extremely difficult to fake that kind of physical reaction. There were a few other factors that I didn't mention because I didn't want to be identified (unlikely as it was).

Not all of them, many corroborated to an extent or we would have thousands of individual claims. In any case you see no parallels so it seem pointless continuing with that example. How about the dancing plague of 1518? In July 1518 in Strasbourg, Alsace, France, a large number of people spontaneously started dancing for days without rest over a period of one month. Most of the people ended up dying due to heart attacks, strokes, or exhaustion. The plague started with one woman, in a matter of a few days that number increased to 340, and within a month to 4000. To this day the cause of the mass hysteria is unknown. Yet people went so far they exhausted themselves to death. They truly believed in something supernatural that clearly was merely self delusion. I would expect a priests faith to be at least this strong? No matter what he see's, he consider himself an authority in these grey areas, so he would assume he has the correct answer, and would confidently repeat it completely believing it to be factual, but his information is religion, upon which no facts can be based.
Or Koro, a culture specific syndrome?

Edited by psyche101, 20 February 2013 - 04:58 AM.

[Detective Mystery 2013]

psyche101, on 20 February 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Not all of them, many corroborated to an extent or we would have thousands of individual claims. In any case you see no parallels so it seem pointless continuing with that example. How about the dancing plague of 1518? In July 1518 in Strasbourg, Alsace, France, a large number of people spontaneously started dancing for days without rest over a period of one month. Most of the people ended up dying due to heart attacks, strokes, or exhaustion. The plague started with one woman, in a matter of a few days that number increased to 340, and within a month to 4000. To this day the cause of the mass hysteria is unknown. Yet people went so far they exhausted themselves to death. They truly believed in something supernatural that clearly was merely self delusion. I would expect a priests faith to be at least this strong? No matter what he see's, he consider himself an authority in these grey areas, so he would assume he has the correct answer, and would confidently repeat it completely believing it to be factual, but his information is religion, upon which no facts can be based.
Or Koro, a culture specific syndrome?

Thanks for reminding me to buy a book on experiences like that. It's a great collection of a lot of examples. There's no doubt that mass hysteria is and was a real phenomenon. It explains some alleged paranormal events. It doesn't explain all of them, though. Mass hysteria and true experience can exist side by side in the world. Both can be real, just like physicians encounter hypochondriacs as well as genuinely sick individuals. We live in a vast universe, full of myriad possibilities, where x does not necessarily show that y must have the same root cause.