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SETI search shows no signs of intell. life


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#61    Hazzard

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:32 AM

View PostZeta Reticulum, on 26 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Yep thats right.... the govt never holds secrets....never have never will.
They get that info out as quick as they can. Great thinking !!

Based on your post Im guessing you are one of those people who believes in a one world super government like the Illuminati or something.

If not, you are doing a common CT thought blunder here. Not all astronomers (thousands world wide) are controlled by the US government. Keeping something like this a secret would be impossible.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#62    bison

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:58 PM

View PostZeta Reticulum, on 26 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Yep thats right.... the govt never holds secrets....never have never will.
They get that info out as quick as they can. Great thinking !!
  Governments have no known SETI projects. The SETI projects one sees discussed here and elsewhere, or referred to in the news media, are sponsored by private organizations.
Even if a government wanted  to silence a SETI discovery by one of these projects, the way that scientific discoveries are vetted would very probably prevent this. Long before it was openly admitted that a possible SETI signal had been found, many other observatories, in a number of countries, would be asked to look for it.
Suppose that the signal is real, and others hear it, too. By the time the discovery is really known to be genuine, and this is openly admitted, the news will have been too widely spread by private channels of communications within the scientific community to be suppressed.
The only way a government might be able to suppress such a discovery would be to monitor the internal communications of SETI organizations constantly, and the minute a possible SETI signal appeared, jump in and cut off their access to the outside world, and hold its principal members incommunicado indefinitely.
Such possible SETI signals have been detected a number of times. It has variously taken hours, days, or weeks, or months to determine that these were merely man-made interference or natural phenomena.  In the meantime, the SETI people report no government swooping in and silencing them.

Edited by bison, 26 February 2013 - 02:59 PM.


#63    DingoLingo

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:18 PM

View PostZeta Reticulum, on 26 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Yep thats right.... the govt never holds secrets....never have never will.
They get that info out as quick as they can. Great thinking !!

heh I think we can safely say.. you really do not know how SETI operates .. or understand how it operates..


#64    Occams Razor

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:33 AM

The fact that SETI heard nothing is disappointing but not really unexpected. If SETI researchers on other planets had pointed their antennas at us for the last 3 .5 billion years they would have heard nothing until very, very recently. They would have heard nothing at all before the last 100 years or so.

Yet this planet is teeming with all sorts of critters, some even claim to be intelligent and have developed radio technology. This radio technology does beacon a technologically advanced species to anyone 'out there' who may be listening. This may or may not be a good thing depending on the disposition of the ET's receiving our signals, and whether or not they have the technology to get here.

The physics of electromagnetic radio waves are universal, so listening for radio signals from ET is not as daft as many think. It's not like trying to receive smoke signals on a radio. An ET radio signal could be detected and identified as a synthetic structured signal that had been generated by an intelligent technologically advanced alien species even if we couldn't actually decode the message. if it was narrow band and contained modulation then it is a structured synthetic signal that has been generated by a technological device that has been built by some critter, not something generated by nature. An intelligent alien species may well go through industrial development leading to electricity and then on to radio technology, why wouldn't they? It's a logical progression for any "intelligent" species.

It may be that the planets surveyed are not at that level of technological development yet, they may still be living in caves or floating around in galleons. Or they may be so far in advance of us that they no longer use radio waves, or their processing of very small radio signals is so good that the levels of radio energy they transmit is far too low to be detected beyond their planet. Radio signals don't just travel out into space and keep going and going at the same signal strength, they get progressively weaker the further they get from the source.There are many reasons that may account for the lack of signals out there even though there may be much life.

Remember too that SETI have heard "good candidate" signals in the past. The new SKA will be many times more sensitive than anything in operation at the moment, that may just be sensitive enough to pick up an ET version of cornflake adverts.

It's an old saying but it's absolutely true "the only way to guarantee you don't hear a signal from ET is to not listen for one". They could be detecting a signal from ET as I'm typing this, you never know. They have to keep listening.

Personally I think the galaxy is teeming with life, it's only a matter of time before we 'know' it's teeming with life.

If it turns out that these planets in the "goldilocks zone" of their stars don't have any intelligent critters occupying them, just their equivalent of dinosaurs and tigers etc, they would be good candidates for colonies. That is of course after CERN get their current set of experiments completed and we can seriously consider inter-stellar travel.


#65    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:38 AM

There would be serious ethical problems with colonizing a planet that already had life on it, even though it was not advanced.  We would in effect be denying what might evolve there any chance to do so.

I suspect it would also not be possible.  The local critters would have a different and probably highly poisonous (to us) chemistry.


#66    Occams Razor

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:30 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 23 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

There would be serious ethical problems with colonizing a planet that already had life on it, even though it was not advanced.  We would in effect be denying what might evolve there any chance to do so.

I suspect it would also not be possible.  The local critters would have a different and probably highly poisonous (to us) chemistry.

To be honest I don't think any serious ethical problems would arise under these circumstances. The period of time required for the development of man from the time of the dinosaurs was hundreds of millions of years. No-one would just leave a nice juicy habitable planet in that state of development to its own devices. It could potentially be colonized by an ET species and would be lost to us if we just left it alone.

There are very good examples of how ethical colonization has been in the past right here. North America and Australia are excellent examples, and the indigenous life forms were a lot more advanced than dinosaurs.

As far as the local critters being poisonous goes, I live in Australia, almost everything here that wriggles is poisonous. If the planet was in the 'goldilocks zone' and had developing life on it this would most likely be because it had water, saltwater oceans just like here. I think this would lead to a biological environment similar enough to here to allow us to co-habit with the local critters. If it didn't have a similar biosphere we probably wouldn't be interested in living there.


#67    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:36 AM

I'm thinking quite otherwise; ethics would tell me to leave a biological system alone and let it do its thing.  I also think that we were similarly treated may be the explanation for why in all these billions of years we have not been contaminated by external life forms.

As far as poisonous stuff goes, what you see evolved here is child's play compared to what nature could cook up if it were using completely different genetic coding systems.  Same water and so on, but no proteins, probably not even amino acids.  Completely alien and therefore almost certainly deadly.


#68    Occams Razor

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:52 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 23 March 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

I'm thinking quite otherwise; ethics would tell me to leave a biological system alone and let it do its thing.  I also think that we were similarly treated may be the explanation for why in all these billions of years we have not been contaminated by external life forms.

As far as poisonous stuff goes, what you see evolved here is child's play compared to what nature could cook up if it were using completely different genetic coding systems.  Same water and so on, but no proteins, probably not even amino acids.  Completely alien and therefore almost certainly deadly.

I think realistically by the time we have the technology to travel to other star systems we will be running out of room here. We will need to colonize other planets in order to perpetuate our own species and the same ethics that applied when North America and Australia were colonized will apply. I think this would certainly happen if the planet was only populated by their equivalent of dinosaurs. It would probably happen if the planet was populated by their equivalent of cavemen. If it were populated by critters building their equivalent of galleons etc and it was obvious they would develop into a technological civilization maybe not, I think it would completely depend on how badly we needed their planet. Look at our history here, that tells the tale. We are a very pragmatic species.

We may have been left alone as when we were discovered we were in our reading, writing, making metals etc stage of development, not the dinosaur or caveman stage, if so you may be right, perhaps there is a galaxy police that ensures the safety of developing species. The need for species to expand beyond their own star system must be common so there may be some kind of galactic control organization in place that controls who can have what. We won't find out until we have the technology to get out there though. Roddenbury was probably right.

Our planet would also have to have the correct conditions for the discoverers with regard gravity, amount of starlight and atmosphere etc. Our planet might not be suitable for many species, we may have been left alone because they don't want it.

With regard deadly critters, there are no degrees of dead, critters are either deadly or not.

Edited by Occams Razor, 24 March 2013 - 12:02 AM.


#69    Coffey

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:24 AM

View PostHazzard, on 26 February 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Based on your post Im guessing you are one of those people who believes in a one world super government like the Illuminati or something.

Well you're countries money is controlled by the same group of people as most of the world.... Kinda stupid to think they are not in charge. lol Roosevelt himself admitted presidents are chosen not voted for. lol

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#70    Starseed hybrid 1111

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:19 PM

these agencies that hope to track down alien life i don't think they will with technology yet because life exist in many forms and sizes.what i mean is that just because planet earth contains 3D life and form does not mean that other planets are the same.everything is energy and consciousness there are way more advanced life forms and not in physical form like us or earth although they can if they choose to be if they desire and want to people.these E.Ts are million of years way more advanced both spiritually and technologically they well balanced with both unlike humanity here.


#71    WoIverine

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:24 PM

No signs of intelligent life? Did anybody make sure those guys were actually pointing the dish AWAY from Earth this time?


#72    bison

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:29 PM

View PostAndromedan Starseed 333, on 10 April 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

these agencies that hope to track down alien life i don't think they will with technology yet because life exist in many forms and sizes.what i mean is that just because planet earth contains 3D life and form does not mean that other planets are the same.everything is energy and consciousness there are way more advanced life forms and not in physical form like us or earth although they can if they choose to be if they desire and want to people.these E.Ts are million of years way more advanced both spiritually and technologically they well balanced with both unlike humanity here.
I don't doubt that there are extraterrestrial races millions, or even billions of years more advanced than we are. I even see your point about the possibility of their existing in radically different forms from us, even non-material ones.  It seems just as likely that there are also a great many races at all the intermediate points of development between us and the most advanced ones. Many of those could be physical beings in the same sense that we are, live under similar conditions to us, and might be willing to use radio waves to communicate with us, if they deemed the time was right to do so.


#73    Occams Razor

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:57 AM

View PostMedicTJ, on 11 February 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  If there's intelligent life out there, then it's so scarce that the possibility of detecting a signal is next to none.

Given Drake's equation, SETI should have gotten a "hit" the very first time they fired up.  Sure, they wouldn't all be using "primitive" radio signals to communicate.  But let's say only .001 percent of the possible civilizations out there use exactly what we use.  There are literally trillions upon trillions upon trillions of stars in the universe.  The majority likely have planets.

The entire dial should have been lit up as soon as SETI turned on.

No, it shouldn't. Although there are around 200 billion stars in our Milky Way galaxy Drake's equation suggests there should only be around 10,000 intelligent technologically advanced species in our galaxy. Some of them would have to be at a similar level of development to us in order to be using radio waves for broadcasting and radar etc. Many would most likely have moved on from radio or would not yet be at the point where they could generate radio waves. So there may only be a small percentage of the 10,000 that we could actually detect with our present level of receiver technology even if they were close enough to be detected at all. Remember, radio waves do not just travel out through space at the level they were 'launched', the signal strength reduces the further it gets from the source. And the signal strength from broadcasting, signals that would be classed as 'leakage' and not transmissions deliberately aimed out into space would drop off very rapidly indeed.

The equipment used by SETI when they first switched on was orders of magnitude less sensitive than what they have today so they would have been very, very lucky to hear anything at all. They have a much more realistic chance of detecting alien radio signals with a targeted search with today's equipment. That said, alien signals could be wafting past our planet right now, as I'm writing this, but even our current equipment is not sensitive enough to detect it.

So, out of 200 billion possible star systems we are trying to detect a signal from a small percentage of 10,000 technologically advanced species scattered all over the galaxy and they have searched 86 exoplanets and found nothing. Surprise, surprise. Finding a needle in 10 million haystacks would be far easier.

The only way to guarantee you will never find an alien signal is to shrug and give up listening. The way forward is to do exactly what they are doing, using ever improving optical telescopes to find exoplanets and using ever improving radio telescopes to try and detect evidence of technology on those planets.

Edited by Occams Razor, 13 April 2013 - 01:01 AM.


#74    badeskov

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:15 AM

If I may shamelessly interject myself here.

View PostOccams Razor, on 13 April 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

No, it shouldn't.

Agreed.

Quote

Although there are around 200 billion stars in our Milky Way galaxy Drake's equation suggests there should only be around 10,000 intelligent technologically advanced species in our galaxy.

Actually, to the best of my knowledge Drake's equation suggests no such thing. Drake's equation is merely a probability spelled out and whatever it suggests is solely based on the numbers stuffed into it. Numbers we can currently only offer guesses towards.

Quote

Some of them would have to be at a similar level of development to us in order to be using radio waves for broadcasting and radar etc. Many would most likely have moved on from radio or would not yet be at the point where they could generate radio waves.

Yes and no. Given that electromagnetic radiation is, to the best of our knowledge, one of the most efficient means to do radar and long distance communications over spans where it is not viable to put down different infra-structures (optical fibers, for instance), we should still expect they would radiate in certain wavelength bands. However, that is not to say that we can detect them. Our TV/radio broadcasts are essentially drowned out in noise by the time they leave the Solar system Some high power emitters such as the Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS) should be detecable out to a couple of hundred light years, but as they are frequency hopping and doing all kinds of other tricks to avoid jamming, I am sure ET would be rather annoyed trying to home in on it.  

Quote

So there may only be a small percentage of the 10,000 that we could actually detect with our present level of receiver technology even if they were close enough to be detected at all. Remember, radio waves do not just travel out through space at the level they were 'launched', the signal strength reduces the further it gets from the source. And the signal strength from broadcasting, signals that would be classed as 'leakage' and not transmissions deliberately aimed out into space would drop off very rapidly indeed.

All radio emissions would follow the inverse square law, meaning that the power at a given distance would Pz ~ P0/zs. In other words, each time distance is increased by a factor of 10, the power that can be detected is reduced by a factor of 100. Thus it does not take long before any signal is buried in back ground noise.

Quote

The equipment used by SETI when they first switched on was orders of magnitude less sensitive than what they have today so they would have been very, very lucky to hear anything at all. They have a much more realistic chance of detecting alien radio signals with a targeted search with today's equipment. That said, alien signals could be wafting past our planet right now, as I'm writing this, but even our current equipment is not sensitive enough to detect it.

Agreed, they have some pretty good equipment, but I am actually not surprised that they have not detected anything yet.

Quote

So, out of 200 billion possible star systems we are trying to detect a signal from a small percentage of 10,000 technologically advanced species scattered all over the galaxy and they have searched 86 exoplanets and found nothing. Surprise, surprise. Finding a needle in 10 million haystacks would be far easier.

Yup!

Quote

The only way to guarantee you will never find an alien signal is to shrug and give up listening. The way forward is to do exactly what they are doing, using ever improving optical telescopes to find exoplanets and using ever improving radio telescopes to try and detect evidence of technology on those planets.

Again, agreed :)

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#75    onereaderone

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:26 AM

oh  my...   all  the  acr welders  on  this  planet...   and  your  listening   for   camp  fire  songs?

we  do  not  need  to hear  a  talk radio  broadcast ...  we  only  need  to  hear  a genarator  running  ,  a  arc welder...   a  transmission  line  with a bad  insulator ...

i  do  not  need  to  hear  a language  that  i  will  never  understand....   i  just  want  to  hear  something like   a  voice  in  the  dark  of  the  night  sky...  that  says ...   there  is  anything  out  there ...

right  this  moment , there  is  not  any  reason  to  beleive  that   there  is  any  form  of  life in  space ...

which  means...    either  there  is  something  very special  about   where  we  stand....   or  there  is  something  special  about  every  where  we  are not ....





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