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Iran Rejects U.S.Talks


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#61    Yamato

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 02:16 AM

View Postand then, on 13 February 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

They haven't done anything short of intel gathering and the occasional "hit" within Syria since 1973.  But if Assad tries to spread the wealth of chemical weapons to those terr, er,  aggrieved innocents in Hizballah, then Damascus is going to become a heap of smoking ruins and the world can get over itself in the aftermath of what they have brought to pass.  And I don't really care what Russia does in Syria - except that I think it's hypocritical to support them while they help Assad continue his murderous rage against unarmed civilians.  No matter which group comes out on top in Syria, they will have the west in their sights next.
Israel bombed Syria in 2007 and you don't even know about it, showcasing the biased lens we view the conflicts in this region through.   90% of our government would be running around with its hair on fire if one of Israel's neighbors bombed Israel, ergo the double standard, not just in regards to our policy, but even our selective knowledge base.  Maybe it's just a selective attention span that filters out what we don't want to acknowledge.

I don't support Russia, therefore I'm not two-faced supporting US support of Israel's atrocities while rightfully condemning Assad's for his.  Political differences having it one way when we want it, and the other way when we don't, don't compete with the principle of non-violence, self defense, private property, self-determination, individual liberty, ethnic and religious equality under the law.   You have to violate every one of those principles to support Zionist policy.   Zionism violates every human virtue I hold dear.   Americans fought and died to relieve ourselves of far less.   We should never forget where we came from and what makes us Americans.   Supporting Israel puts egg on our face, jeopardizes our freedom and security, and forces us to be hypocrites and eviscerates our moral authority on the world stage.  Enough already.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#62    Zaphod222

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:10 AM

View PostYamato, on 14 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

Israel bombed Syria in 2007 and you don't even know about it, showcasing the biased lens we view the conflicts in this region through.   90% of our government would be running around with its hair on fire if one of Israel's neighbors bombed Israel, ergo the double standard,

This comment is so stupid, I don´t even know where to begin to comment. Do you even realize that Israel is subjected to bombings and rocket attacks from the likes of Hizballah and Hamas every day?
Which is typically ignored by Western media.
Only on the rare occasions that Israel responds, does it get reported.
Israel, by the way, did not "bomb Syria" in 2007; they took out one nuclear facility, and you should be grateful for that.

Good grief. Where do you get this antisemitic bile from? Muslim Brotherhood propaganda sites only?

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#63    NiteMarcher

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:28 AM



Believe what you want and I'll believe whatever I want...it's an open field, and
everyone is given a chance at making a home run...

#64    NiteMarcher

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:52 AM



Believe what you want and I'll believe whatever I want...it's an open field, and
everyone is given a chance at making a home run...

#65    Yamato

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:52 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 14 February 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

This comment is so stupid, I don´t even know where to begin to comment. Do you even realize that Israel is subjected to bombings and rocket attacks from the likes of Hizballah and Hamas every day?
Which is typically ignored by Western media.
Only on the rare occasions that Israel responds, does it get reported.
Israel, by the way, did not "bomb Syria" in 2007; they took out one nuclear facility, and you should be grateful for that.

Good grief. Where do you get this antisemitic bile from? Muslim Brotherhood propaganda sites only?
That has nothing to do with what I said.

I don't see what you believe to be true getting reported in the Israeli press every day either.   So why do you believe it?  Because some ZIonist told you it was true, that's why.   What evidence do you have?  Zionist word of mouth, of course.   Hard not to ignore something we're subsidizing from 7,000 miles away when they ignore it themselves.   Let's see these daily rocket attacks being launched by Hezbollah or Hamas.   If I was an innocent victim living under siege by some foreign government with no future, no job, and no hope for political reform I'd be popping off some homemade rockets too, granted the shortage of real weapons like rifles.  

The principle is very simple no matter how many false coats of paint you try to put on it.  If any foreign power came over here and put my country under siege I would help bury them up to their eyeballs with their own dead.   No amount of political bologna trying to make excuses for that siege, such as what some US politician said or did in the past, is going to deter me from American virtues like independence and freedom, thanks but no thanks.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#66    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:01 AM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 13 February 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Are you suggesting the election was fixed? Because that has been long debunked on this forum.
oh, we know how the people in these tinpot theocracies are able to choose their leader in completely free & fair elections, yes, I'm sure. Like how the N. koreans were able to choose their Dear Leader, I'm sure ... :innocent:

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#67    Yamato

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:30 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 14 February 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

oh, we know how the people in these tinpot theocracies are able to choose their leader in completely free & fair elections, yes, I'm sure. Like how the N. koreans were able to choose their Dear Leader, I'm sure ... :innocent:
So for the record you don't support how the USSR maintained its leaders through the 20th century either, right?

Free and fair elections are extremely hard to come by.  Completely free and fair?  Who does that?   It's yet another reason why democracy is overrated.  Yet democracy is what we're told is so vitally important and some of us still believe it, lacking the freedom to acquire better even alternatives.  

Iran had a divided population in their last election with huge turnouts for the two major choices in a close election that wasn't reminiscent of many other obviously rigged elections we can speak of.   The election protesters drew enormous crowds and it appeared they had a legitimate case at first.  Until Ahmadinejad supporters drew enormous crowds of their own in return, and the election conspiracies fell flat soon after.

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#68    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:10 AM

View PostYamato, on 14 February 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

So for the record you don't support how the USSR maintained its leaders through the 20th century either, right?

Free and fair elections are extremely hard to come by.  Completely free and fair?  Who does that?   It's yet another reason why democracy is overrated.  Yet democracy is what we're told is so vitally important and some of us still believe it, lacking the freedom to acquire better even alternatives.  

Iran had a divided population in their last election with huge turnouts for the two major choices in a close election that wasn't reminiscent of many other obviously rigged elections we can speak of.   The election protesters drew enormous crowds and it appeared they had a legitimate case at first.  Until Ahmadinejad supporters drew enormous crowds of their own in return, and the election conspiracies fell flat soon after.
Mr. Ahmadejebad was elected every bit as fairly as Comrade Stalin ever was, I have no doubt.

or Mr. Putin, come to that. :innocent:
anyway, who was talking about Russia?
I'm sure that the enormous crowds turning out in support of Admadjebad were every bit as legitimate as the crowds turning out to support Assad. :innocent:

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

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#69    Yamato

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:32 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 14 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Mr. Ahmadejebad was elected every bit as fairly as Comrade Stalin ever was, I have no doubt.

or Mr. Putin, come to that. :innocent:
anyway, who was talking about Russia?
I'm sure that the enormous crowds turning out in support of Admadjebad were every bit as legitimate as the crowds turning out to support Assad. :innocent:
You're sure, but you have no evidence to be sure.  You just make these comparisons without any evidence whatsoever.  I have plenty of doubt and I'm not sure about any of this foreign business, and I can admit that.   All self-assured sarcasm aside, when I see massive numbers of people mobilize in the streets in support of something, that's pretty hard to deny.   It's called transparency, as opposed to secretive elections run by the bureau behind the curtain.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#70    and then

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:33 AM

View PostYamato, on 14 February 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

You're sure, but you have no evidence to be sure.  You just make these comparisons without any evidence whatsoever.  I have plenty of doubt and I'm not sure about any of this foreign business, and I can admit that.   All self-assured sarcasm aside, when I see massive numbers of people mobilize in the streets in support of something, that's pretty hard to deny.   It's called transparency, as opposed to secretive elections run by the bureau behind the curtain.
This is exactly what happened after the election was called for A'jad in a time frame so short that it would have been impossible to have actually counted millions of ballots.  The fact that the Basiij prompted masses to the streets in support of the crime surprises you how?  Proof is a funny thing - kind of like statistics - it can be tortured to say anything that agrees with preconceived notions.  Many of the protesters of that election are still in prison.  Quite a few were killed in the streets.  Wonderful regime, that.

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#71    Frank Merton

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:39 AM

It seems that several US Presidents lack a popular majority too, and maybe even an electoral college majority.  We know of several recent incidents of this; I also know of one where Illinois got delivered at the last minute to Kennedy to everyone's considerable surprise, and thereby shifted the electoral majority.

The fact is democratic procedure works when there is a clear majority, but in contests where the result is close, the faction in control of the electoral apparatus tends to be the victor in the end.


#72    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostYamato, on 14 February 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

You're sure, but you have no evidence to be sure.  You just make these comparisons without any evidence whatsoever.  I have plenty of doubt and I'm not sure about any of this foreign business, and I can admit that.   All self-assured sarcasm aside, when I see massive numbers of people mobilize in the streets in support of something, that's pretty hard to deny.   It's called transparency, as opposed to secretive elections run by the bureau behind the curtain.
have you really no conception how easy it is for totalitarian states to mass massive numbers of people in the streets in support of the regime? All dictators have always done it throughout history. Either whip the People up into a frenzy of hate for your chosen bogey figure, or simply through pure coercion.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#73    and then

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:59 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 14 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

It seems that several US Presidents lack a popular majority too, and maybe even an electoral college majority.  We know of several recent incidents of this; I also know of one where Illinois got delivered at the last minute to Kennedy to everyone's considerable surprise, and thereby shifted the electoral majority.

The fact is democratic procedure works when there is a clear majority, but in contests where the result is close, the faction in control of the electoral apparatus tends to be the victor in the end.
No system is perfect, certainly.  But it's a bit hard to support one that imprisons or even kills opponents.  Both of these things happened,without doubt, after the 2009 election of A'jad.  Many world bodies questioned the validity of the election.  But when one's first instinct is to find fault with an ideology rather than discuss facts, the conversation becomes difficult and pointless at times.  That last was not an indictment of your post, Frank.

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#74    Yamato

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:08 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 14 February 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

have you really no conception how easy it is for totalitarian states to mass massive numbers of people in the streets in support of the regime? All dictators have always done it throughout history. Either whip the People up into a frenzy of hate for your chosen bogey figure, or simply through pure coercion.
You were the one claiming a rigged election in the first place.   And what evidence do you have of that?   Not the protesters filling the streets, because that's what you find hard to believe?    Whipping people into a frenzy of hate for a bogeyman isn't unique to totalitarian regimes.   Nor is it solely for the crowds you don't happen to politically agree with.   It's pretty ridiculous to think that the pro-Ahmadinejad crowds were whipped up or coerced when there's no evidence of coercion with the anti-incumbent protesters already taking to the streets.   Your conjecture needs evidence and at the very least, stronger evidence than the self-evident crowds.

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#75    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:24 AM

View PostYamato, on 14 February 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

You were the one claiming a rigged election in the first place. And what evidence do you have of that? Not the protesters filling the streets, because that's what you find hard to believe? Whipping people into a frenzy of hate for a bogeyman isn't unique to totalitarian regimes. Nor is it solely for the crowds you don't happen to politically agree with. It's pretty ridiculous to think that the pro-Ahmadinejad crowds were whipped up or coerced when there's no evidence of coercion with the anti-incumbent protesters already taking to the streets. Your conjecture needs evidence and at the very least, stronger evidence than the self-evident crowds.
So you really believe that just because there were crowds in the streets chanting his name, that means that he was legitimately elected and the West has no business being suspicious of him? Do you really believe that there's no evidence of coercion under Ahdmajebad's regime? That it allows free protest and that if anyone voices opposition, there'll be no recriminations? I wonder what happened to those anti-incumbent protestors? I'm sure there were no recriminations there at all. And even if he was "legitimately" elected, does that make it all right, then, and the West should let him carry on and do just what he wants to do? :huh: I know comparisons with the Third Reich are terribly cliched, but were the enormous demonstrations in support of Hitler (who was legitimately elected), at Nuremberg and when he annexed Austria, proof that he was popular with his People and that therefore it was no business of other countries what he did or threatened to do?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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