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Nefertiti was King King Tutís mom?

marc gabolde nefertiti king tut akhenaten tutankhamun

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#1    Still Waters

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:10 PM

A genetic investigation by French archaeologist Marc Gabolde is threatening to rewrite the history books on two of ancient Egypt's most iconic figures.

For years, antiquities experts have assumed that Akhenaten and his unnamed sister were the parents of the world's most famous pharaoh, Tutankhamun. And in fact, recent DNA analyses suggested as much. But as Gabolde's new interpretation of the genetic data shows, King Tut's mom may have been none other than his father's first cousin, Nefertiti.

http://io9.com/59836...s-king-tuts-mom

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#2    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 11:31 PM

Well, I guess "King King Tut" is better than "King Tut Tut!"  :P


#3    Everdred

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:50 AM

View PostStill Waters, on 13 February 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

Unsubstantiated guesswork by French archaeologist Marc Gabolde is threatening to rewrite the history books on two of ancient Egypt's most iconic figures.

Fixed.


#4    third_eye

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:24 AM

mommie !!!!

~slo mo sequence of two mummies running toward each other on the peak of a sand dune in the middle of a massive sea of deset dunes, the sun setting, bursting the sky into a massive electron haze of warm hues and tones ... ~

mummies !!!

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#5    TheSearcher

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:26 AM

Quote

Gabolde told his audience that this DNA evidence was incorrectly interpreted. The apparent genetic closeness, he argued, was on account of three successive generations of marriage between first cousins.
"The consequence of that is that the DNA of the third generation between cousins looks like the DNA between a brother and sister," he said. "I believe that Tutankhamun is the son of Akhenaten and Nefertiti, but that Akhenaten and Nefertiti were cousins."

So it's an assumption if anything.

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#6    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:33 PM

Very dubious about this. Until the most complete DNA data of all the Armarna period mummies are released for independant analysis by multiple agencies, and I doubt this will happen any time soon, then we simply do not know for certain about questions like this. What Gabolde very strongly suggests here is that the body in KV55 was Akhenaten, and this is hotly disputed, and that KV35YL, identified by DNA as Tutankhamun's mother, is actually Nefertiti. Fletcher tried to suggest this ten or so years ago and was blown out of the water. I see no reason to salvage that sunken idea. I think Gabolde is wrong because I do not believe KV35YL to be Nefertiti.


#7    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:16 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 14 February 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Very dubious about this. Until the most complete DNA data of all the Armarna period mummies are released for independant analysis by multiple agencies, and I doubt this will happen any time soon, then we simply do not know for certain about questions like this. What Gabolde very strongly suggests here is that the body in KV55 was Akhenaten, and this is hotly disputed, and that KV35YL, identified by DNA as Tutankhamun's mother, is actually Nefertiti. Fletcher tried to suggest this ten or so years ago and was blown out of the water. I see no reason to salvage that sunken idea. I think Gabolde is wrong because I do not believe KV35YL to be Nefertiti.

The biggest item working against Gabolde's theory IMO is that while Akhenaten did have sisters there is no evidence that Nefertiti was one of them. Her ancestry is still very much a matter of debate.

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#8    Aten

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:16 PM

Err is this new?, I am sure I read about this way back in 1995 or the postulation of it. :)


#9    glorybebe

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:24 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 February 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:



The biggest item working against Gabolde's theory IMO is that while Akhenaten did have sisters there is no evidence that Nefertiti was one of them. Her ancestry is still very much a matter of debate.

cormac
Not to be nitpicky, but it states that Nefertiti was a cousin, not a sister.  Who knows?  Unless we can di dna analysis with 100% accuracy of the identity if the mummies, will probably never know the truth.

Edited by glorybebe, 14 February 2013 - 06:29 PM.

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#10    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:11 PM

View Postglorybebe, on 14 February 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

Not to be nitpicky, but it states that Nefertiti was a cousin, not a sister.  Who knows?  Unless we can di dna analysis with 100% accuracy of the identity if the mummies, will probably never know the truth.

But the parents of Tutankhamum were brother and sister according to the DNA analysis and such analyses can determine the difference between a cousin and a sibling.

cormac

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#11    glorybebe

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:19 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 February 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:



But the parents of Tutankhamum were brother and sister according to the DNA analysis and such analyses can determine the difference between a cousin and a sibling.

cormac

Ah!  Gotcha!

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#12    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:31 PM

View Postglorybebe, on 14 February 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ah!  Gotcha!

And just to throw this out there, there have been two possibilities presented for Nefertiti in the original JAMA report. One is KV35 YL and the other, KV35 EL. In neither case do the microsatellites match sufficiently for either lady to be a full sister of Akhenaten. Which means that if either lady really was Nefertiti then she definitely wasn't Tutankhamun's mother.

Attached File  Microsatellite Data of Mummies Thought to Belong to the Tutankhamun Kindred.gif   43.17K   5 downloads

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#13    Everdred

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:39 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 February 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

And just to throw this out there, there have been two possibilities presented for Nefertiti in the original JAMA report. One is KV35 YL and the other, KV35 EL. In neither case do the microsatellites match sufficiently for either lady to be a full sister of Akhenaten. Which means that if either lady really was Nefertiti then she definitely wasn't Tutankhamun's mother.

Attachment Microsatellite Data of Mummies Thought to Belong to the Tutankhamun Kindred.gif

cormac

What makes you say that?  Looks like a perfect match to me.  Both KV55 and KV35YL have alleles from their putative parents (KV35EL and Amenhotep III) at every locus.


#14    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:43 PM

View PostAten, on 14 February 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

Err is this new?, I am sure I read about this way back in 1995 or the postulation of it. :)
You could well have been reading about this since 1925 let alone 1995. What has breathed new life into this ancient and contentious nonsense is the DNA testing done in 2010.


#15    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:54 PM

View PostEverdred, on 14 February 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

What makes you say that?  Looks like a perfect match to me.  Both KV55 and KV35YL have alleles from their putative parents (KV35EL and Amenhotep III) at every locus.

Your right. Got a bit ahead of myself with two different trains of thought. The whole "first cousin/full sister" bit threw me off. What I should have said was that if KV35 Elder Lady was Nefertiti, then there is no way she was Tutankhamun's mother*. And there is no extant information from Ancient Egypt on Nefertiti's parentage**, to make her a biological sister of Akhenaten, so Gabolde is attempting to pidgeon-hole her into the genetic lineage based on nothing. So it's basically wishful thinking on his part.

* Although KV35 EL may have been Queen Tiye.

** Although some think she may have been a daughter of Ay, which again would rule her out as Akhenaten's full-sister.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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