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Why is Mexico asking for list of US gun owner


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#16    jugoso

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:24 PM

View Postaztek, on 19 February 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

we already know who sells guns to cartels, us gvmnt. it is already proven.

it definatly not farmers that have their property trasspassed, and who are indangered by these cartels runners\illegals) , that sell their guns to cartels. you got to be a big idiot to believe that.
i would not give mexico s...t, none of their buissnes.
may be if their officials will give us all their bank accounts, so we could trace how they spend\get their money, we may get a lot usefull info, may be will'l trace cartel money.

I agree with the first part of your staement. As to the second, they have been doing that for quite some time. The US government couldn´t care less about the drugs.....it´s the money they are interested in.

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#17    aztek

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:28 PM

who has been doing it for quite sometime?? farmers? residents?? and doing what? selling their guns??? you do have at least some evidence to that don't you? if that is what you are talking about.

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#18    jugoso

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:51 PM

View Postaztek, on 19 February 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

who has been doing it for quite sometime?? farmers? residents?? and doing what? selling their guns??? you do have at least some evidence to that don't you? if that is what you are talking about.

Sorry, I didn´t make myself clearer in my post. I was referring to Mexico sharing banking information with the US in order to confiscate the money. That´s the end-game of the whole War on Drugs anyway IMO.

Edited by jugoso, 19 February 2013 - 08:51 PM.

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#19    jugoso

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:57 PM

View Postaztek, on 19 February 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

who has been doing it for quite sometime?? farmers? residents?? and doing what? selling their guns??? you do have at least some evidence to that don't you? if that is what you are talking about.

It was mentioned in the link I provided earlier. There are "straw-buyers who purchase on behalf of the cartel. From link

Quote

Guns shops are not required to alert the authorities to suspicious sales. “We hope that if someone comes in and buys 20 AKs, that they’d call us,” the agent said. Sometimes they do, “but they’re not necessarily required to.”

Mexico probably wouldn´t be asking if the US were doing a better job at looking into suspicious sales.

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#20    aztek

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:02 PM

oh, ok, that makes sence.

now you brought interesting point, if they do it for years, and it doesn't do any good, cartel money is safe, and they keep buying us and mexico politicians, that what is the point to give names of gunowners, they will be just as useless as bank data, in a war on drugs, that is if we have a goal to win that war, not to keep fighting it, (which seems like what the whole point is).
if we want to end it, we should just take away the reason for their exsistance. lagalize it, and we wont have any need for those cartels. hell the same cartels would still make money, if they do the same thing legaly.
but corrupt politicians on both sides, will loose a lot, imo they are the reason we keep fighting unwinable war.

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#21    aztek

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:17 PM

the links i posted before clearly show, that tens of thousands of full auto rifles are brought to cartels, by deserters from mexico, and other south american armies, by deserters themselves, that offer their services to cartels. not semi auto look alikes that you buy in usa. it just doesn't add up. it has been investigated before, and it proves that amount of guns that come from usa, is tiny on the grand scale. it is money that come out from usa, that cartels need, they have planty of guns, and most importantly disposable soldiers.
i see no reason, to give personal info of amertican citizens to most corrupt, and incompetent, and outright criminal gvmnt on north american continent.

Edited by aztek, 19 February 2013 - 09:31 PM.

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#22    jugoso

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:30 PM

View Postaztek, on 19 February 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

the links i posted before clearly show, that tens of thousands of full auto rifles are brought to cartels, by deserters from mexico, and other south american armies, by deserters themselves, that offer their services to cartels. not semi auto look alikes that you buy in usa. it just doesn't add up. it has been investigated before, and it proves that amount of guns that come from usa, is tiny on the grand scale. it is money that come out from usa, that cartels need, they have planty of guns, and most importantly disposable soldiers.
i see no reason, to give personal info of amertican citizens to most corrupt, and incompetent, and outright criminal gvmnt on sounth american continent.

Undoubtedly, some guns come from army deserters but can you show me the numbers please? I found this from an ATF report:

Quote

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) today announced the release of trace information for firearms recovered in Mexico and submitted to ATF for tracing. Trace information shows that between calendar years 2007 and 2011 the Government of Mexico recovered and submitted more than 99,000 firearms to ATF for tracing. Of those firearms more than 68,000 were U.S.-sourced.

http://www.atf.gov/p...trace-data.html

View Postaztek, on 19 February 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

the links i posted before clearly show, that tens of thousands of full auto rifles are brought to cartels, by deserters from mexico, and other south american armies, by deserters themselves, that offer their services to cartels. not semi auto look alikes that you buy in usa. it just doesn't add up.it has been investigated before, and it proves that amount of guns that come from usa, is tiny on the grand scale. it is money that come out from usa, that cartels need, they have planty of guns, and most importantly disposable soldiers.
i see no reason, to give personal info of amertican citizens to most corrupt, and incompetent, and outright criminal gvmnt on sounth american continent.

First off, wrong continent. Secondly, that is your opinion and personal prejudice against Mexico. Want to back it up with some comparisons to other Central and South American countries?

Edit: added link

Edited by jugoso, 19 February 2013 - 09:31 PM.

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#23    Yes_Man

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:43 PM

The Mexican government in parts is corrupt


#24    jugoso

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:51 PM

View Postaztek, on 19 February 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

i see no reason, to give personal info of amertican citizens to most corrupt, and incompetent, and outright criminal gvmnt on north american continent.

Those who live in glass houses.... :whistle:

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#25    aztek

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:51 PM

http://www.wired.com...2012/11/cartel/
http://www.stratfor....90-percent-myth
http://www.foxnews.c...ns-mexico-come/
http://frontpagemag....get-their-arms/

why would i compare it to other Central and South American countries, it is not them who ask for american citizen personal info, and it is in mexico where cartels rule, and your gvmnt can't do a thing about it.
pretty clear to anyone with eyes and brain.

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#26    Yamato

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

View PostOverSword, on 19 February 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

How will giving Mexico a list of registered gun owners in the US help trace gun's used in crimes in Mexico?  Do you think Americans are crossing the border and killing people?  The reason given is ridiculous.
I presume to identify individuals who may be involved in the transfer of registered guns to Mexico, or to trace route the flow of those arms to other sources that those individuals' guns wound up going.  A lot of guns get there from here.  I don't blame them for asking but I wouldn't acquiesce with the request.  Mexican authorities are having enough trouble with the cartels in their own cities and towns, but they should do more to secure their own border and stop these runners in onesies and twosies before they can centralize and arm themselves en mass.

View Postquestionmark, on 19 February 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

We should not have waited for Mexico to ask, we should have done something like that 10 years ago.
Well they should have given us a list of their people who could cross into the US 10 years ago too if that's how helpful we now want to be.

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#27    Michelle

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:07 PM

View PostYamato, on 19 February 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:


Well they should have given us a list of their people who could cross into the US 10 years ago too if that's how helpful we now want to be.

:lol: Sorry, I had to laugh. They give out maps on the best way to illegally cross the border into the US.


#28    jugoso

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:12 PM

View Postaztek, on 19 February 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

http://www.wired.com...2012/11/cartel/
http://www.stratfor....90-percent-myth
http://www.foxnews.c...ns-mexico-come/
http://frontpagemag....get-their-arms/

why would i compare it to other Central and South American countries, it is not them who ask for american citizen personal info, and it is in mexico where cartels rule, and your gvmnt can't do a thing about it.
pretty clear to anyone with eyes and brain.

Irregardless of who is asking, you made a pretty strong statement and just wanting you to back it up....otherwise it´s just your opinion and your feelings toward Mexico are quite obvious from other posts you have made. Not trying to say it isn´t corrupt....I live here and I know.

And to go back to the original question as to why Mexico would want this kind of information, possible reasons could be:
  • there are over 2000 gun stores conveniently located along the border
  • Eight of the top 12 U.S. dealers of guns traced to Mexico are located in Texas
  • to identify straw buyers, or people with clean records buying weapons for criminals.


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#29    Sweetpumper

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:19 PM

They want the information because it makes it look like they're trying to do something, when in fact they either can't or won't do anything to stop these cartels.  Blame the evil guns, not the scum beheading people and hanging them from bridges.

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#30    aztek

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:35 PM

View Postjugoso, on 19 February 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Irregardless of who is asking, you made a pretty strong statement and just wanting you to back it up....otherwise it´s just your opinion and your feelings toward Mexico are quite obvious from other posts you have made. Not trying to say it isn´t corrupt....I live here and I know.

And to go back to the original question as to why Mexico would want this kind of information, possible reasons could be:
  • there are over 2000 gun stores conveniently located along the border
  • Eight of the top 12 U.S. dealers of guns traced to Mexico are located in Texas
  • to identify straw buyers, or people with clean records buying weapons for criminals.
i does not matter how you feel about it, but mexican gvnmt proves to be exactly that. look around.
i don't care how many stores are along the border, if we, the usa, could not id sraw buyers for now, (not to mention, we don't know how many times, the straw buyer was the us gvmnt.) no amount of data will help mexico do that either.
also, the cost ( giving away american citizens persoanl info) is way too big, to outweigh, unlikely benefits, (i have no doubt in my mind mexican gvmnt would not solve a single crime, or prevent a single gun to get into mexico).
simply put, it is not worth it. i would not trust  mexico's gvmnt for a second, with that data, you just giving  out gold mine to potential idenetity theves.

Edited by aztek, 19 February 2013 - 10:37 PM.

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