56 replies to this topic

[OldN8Dogg]

Nothing like a nod towards religion to get everyone fired up!  

Frankly, the only people this should annoy are the atheists.  For the rest of us who subscribe to one faith or another, this is a good thing.  It ensures our freedoms equally, and it enables all religions to continue with protection from those who would seek to control, persecute, or otherwise damage those religions.  The government has agencies to protect everything from ethnic / race rights, gay / lesbian rights, special interest rights, even atheist rights.  All of these protections are in place so that we are free to live the life we wish to live.  In a free country, what better use of funds is there?  I may not agree with the other protected groups, but if I do not support their right to be protected, how can I expect the things that I hold important to me to be protected?

Yes, it is very easy and requires little courage (especially on these forums) to condemn anything in support of religous beliefs.  The reality is that if we all employed a live and let live policy, we wouldn't need these groups to protect us.  But, since we are all so very concerned about our opinion being the "right" one, agencies like these are a necessity.  To rail against such an agency that aims to provide an even playing field for all people in all religions (still a vast majority of the world's population: according to the CIA world fact book 89% of the world population subscribes to some religion) is at best a sign of social ignorance, and at worst an effort to oppress and persecute.

[acidhead]

No.

OldN8Dogg, on 25 February 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Nothing like a nod towards religion to get everyone fired up!  

Frankly, the only people this should annoy are the atheists.  For the rest of us who subscribe to one faith or another, this is a good thing.  It ensures our freedoms equally, and it enables all religions to continue with protection from those who would seek to control, persecute, or otherwise damage those religions.  The government has agencies to protect everything from ethnic / race rights, gay / lesbian rights, special interest rights, even atheist rights.  All of these protections are in place so that we are free to live the life we wish to live.  In a free country, what better use of funds is there?  I may not agree with the other protected groups, but if I do not support their right to be protected, how can I expect the things that I hold important to me to be protected?

Yes, it is very easy and requires little courage (especially on these forums) to condemn anything in support of religous beliefs.  The reality is that if we all employed a live and let live policy, we wouldn't need these groups to protect us.  But, since we are all so very concerned about our opinion being the "right" one, agencies like these are a necessity.  To rail against such an agency that aims to provide an even playing field for all people in all religions (still a vast majority of the world's population: according to the CIA world fact book 89% of the world population subscribes to some religion) is at best a sign of social ignorance, and at worst an effort to oppress and persecute.

  

Insuring this so-called freedom of equality results in creating more victims.  New laws which are designed to protect specific groups result in creating more victims.

Edited by acidhead, 26 February 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[OldN8Dogg]

acidhead, on 26 February 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

No.  

Insuring this so-called freedom of equality results in creating more victims.  New laws which are designed to protect specific groups result in creating more victims.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the logic in your arguement at all.  Care to elaborate?  To me protecting an individual's right to believe and worship as they see fit, providing that they adhere to the laws of the land, seems like you reduce the number of "victims", not create more.  Perhaps it doesn't appeal to your particular tastes, but again, when 89% of the world population believes in one religion or another, it seems like a no brainer to me to acknowledge the fact that this is an important element of society over all, and therefore should be protected with the same priority as any other human right.  If you put aside the fashionable trend among self ordained intellectuals to denounce all things religious, you'll see that one plus one still does equal two.  No one is telling YOU what to believe.  They are merely saying that ANYONE has the right to believe whatever they want, and live their lives accordingly.

EDIT:  Sorry, just had a look over your profile, and it would appear that you are more anti government than you are anti religion.  While I agree with some of the libertarian movement, I think the arena of human rights is one of the last things we should ask the government to step away from.

One question about libertarianism.  I noticed you are from Canada, land of "free" (tax supported) health care, provided to us by our government.  Does it mean, then, since you are a libertarian, that you would not call an ambulance in the event of a heart attack or other life threatening medical event?  I've always thought that the surest cure for libertarianism in Canada is a heart attack.  

Edited by OldN8Dogg, 26 February 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[acidhead]

OldN8Dogg, on 26 February 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but I don't see the logic in your arguement at all.  Care to elaborate?  To me protecting an individual's right to believe and worship as they see fit, providing that they adhere to the laws of the land, seems like you reduce the number of "victims", not create more.  Perhaps it doesn't appeal to your particular tastes, but again, when 89% of the world population believes in one religion or another, it seems like a no brainer to me to acknowledge the fact that this is an important element of society over all, and therefore should be protected with the same priority as any other human right.  If you put aside the fashionable trend among self ordained intellectuals to denounce all things religious, you'll see that one plus one still does equal two.  No one is telling YOU what to believe.  They are merely saying that ANYONE has the right to believe whatever they want, and live their lives accordingly.

EDIT:  Sorry, just had a look over your profile, and it would appear that you are more anti government than you are anti religion.  While I agree with some of the libertarian movement, I think the arena of human rights is one of the last things we should ask the government to step away from.

One question about libertarianism.  I noticed you are from Canada, land of "free" (tax supported) health care, provided to us by our government.  Does it mean, then, since you are a libertarian, that you would not call an ambulance in the event of a heart attack or other life threatening medical event?  I've always thought that the surest cure for libertarianism in Canada is a heart attack.  

Freedom isn't granted to an individual from the GOV.  Freedom is everybodys right in a free society.  No special laws need be created to grant freedom to minority or, as you said 89% of the world who is the religious majority.  In a free society everybody is treated as equals regardless of any collective group they desire to be part of.  

In Canada, as you know, if you refuse to pay your GOV medical insurance many steps are taken by Revenue Canada to collect the money:  All are by the use of force and the last will put the individual in prison:

1. frozen bank account
2. deductions from your pay check if employed by an employer through the individuals SIN
3. bankruptcy
4. Prison

Because I am FORCED to pay through the use of force by the GOV I will call the ambulance because I'm paying for it anyhow...  besides, private healthcare is illegal in Canada....DUH

Edited by acidhead, 27 February 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Thanato]

acidhead, on 27 February 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Freedom isn't granted to an individual from the GOV.  Freedom is everybodys right in a free society.  No special laws need be created to grant freedom to minority or, as you said 89% of the world who is the religious majority.  In a free society everybody is treated as equals regardless of any collective group they desire to be part of.  

In Canada, as you know, if you refuse to pay your GOV medical insurance many steps are taken by Revenue Canada to collect the money:  All are by the use of force and the last will put the individual in prison:

1. frozen bank account
2. deductions from your pay check if employed by an employer through the individuals SIN
3. bankruptcy
4. Prison

Because I am FORCED to pay through the use of force by the GOV I will call the ambulance because I'm paying for it anyhow...  besides, private healthcare is illegal in Canada....DUH

Private healthcare is not illegal in Canada, there are many Private Health Insurance companies and some clinics. It's just not a thriving business because millions of Canadians don't want, can't afford, or need private insurance or private care. Of course you are 'froced' to pay because it comes out of your taxes. If you don't pay taxes then you don't pay into the insurance, but that doesn't mean you will be refused, anything such as that.

You know what? Be thankful you live in Canada and not a 3rd world nation where the medical system is well needing vast improvements. Oh and you can spout your anti-government crap.

~Thanato

[OldN8Dogg]

acidhead, on 27 February 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Freedom isn't granted to an individual from the GOV.  Freedom is everybodys right in a free society.  No special laws need be created to grant freedom to minority or, as you said 89% of the world who is the religious majority.  In a free society everybody is treated as equals regardless of any collective group they desire to be part of.  

Really.  We take away government enforced rights, and everyone is suddenly treated as equals?  While I love the utopian vision you portray, a few thousand years of history and common sense dictate that in the absence of governmentally "enforced" equality, those with the either the greatest numbers, the greatest funds, or the greatest strength will rise to the top and oppress or othewise control those beneath them.  Yes, 89% of the world is religions, but within that 89% are many different religions, some of whom, without a government to prevent them, may decide that they are powerful enough to force everyone to be like them.  Whether there is a government or not, it is human nature to try to control things.  At least with a government, those decisions are made by all citizens with a vote.  As an individual you won't win every time, but at least the will of the majority is carried through.  Sure, it's not perfect, but good grief, it's a lot better than what happens in societies with no rule.

acidhead, on 27 February 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

In Canada, as you know, if you refuse to pay your GOV medical insurance many steps are taken by Revenue Canada to collect the money:  All are by the use of force and the last will put the individual in prison:

1. frozen bank account
2. deductions from your pay check if employed by an employer through the individuals SIN
3. bankruptcy
4. Prison

Because I am FORCED to pay through the use of force by the GOV I will call the ambulance because I'm paying for it anyhow...  besides, private healthcare is illegal in Canada....DUH

Let's be clear.  You are not paying for all of that ambulance ride and hospital visit.  You are paying for a small portion of it.  As are all citizens of Canada, so as to be able to take care of each other as a nation.  A family member married a non-citizen, and while she lives in Canada, she is not yet a citizen.  They had a baby at the end of last year.  Coincidentally, so did my wife and I.  My wife and I did not pay a single dime to have the baby.  We had to pay for the privelege of having a semi private room, but that was all.  The family member whose wife was not a citizen had to go nearly $20 000 (she had to have a c-section, which increased the price, but would also have been free for my wife had she needed it) in debt because she was not a citizen, and was therefore charged what it ACTUALLY costs to have a child.

That's how your "libertarian" system would look in terms of healthcare, in one example.  That's "paying" for health care.  Extend that to infrastructure, defense, law and order, etc.  Either you're living in a complete gong show, or you're living in the stone age.  Most likely both.  Or, corporations take over, and then you're in really fine shape.

Yes, pure libertarianism does have some attractive traits.  So did pure communisim.  We all know how that worked out.  Radical ideas like this look great on paper, but never work out in real life, and you know why?  Because humans are humans.  I am frustrated with our government.  I think everyone everywhere is.  There are ineffciencies, there are mistakes, there are corruptions.  But on the whole it's better than your alternative, because along with the bad there is the good, and through a democratic process we can work at making it better.   Your "radical" idea is to simply give up.  Sorry, I don't buy it.

[acidhead]

Don't have time tonight to respond.  But I will tomorrow.

[acidhead]

don't have time to post today.. damn.... tomorrow hopefully

[acidhead]

Thanato, on 27 February 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

Private healthcare is not illegal in Canada, there are many Private Health Insurance companies and some clinics. It's just not a thriving business because millions of Canadians don't want, can't afford, or need private insurance or private care. Of course you are 'froced' to pay because it comes out of your taxes. If you don't pay taxes then you don't pay into the insurance, but that doesn't mean you will be refused, anything such as that.

You know what? Be thankful you live in Canada and not a 3rd world nation where the medical system is well needing vast improvements. Oh and you can spout your anti-government crap.

~Thanato

It is not illegal but it is illegal for private clinics to charge more than the 'above the agreed-upon fee schedule unless they are treating non-insured persons (which may include those eligible under automobile insurance or worker's compensation, in addition to those who are not Canadian residents), or providing non-insured services.'  http://en.wikipedia....ded_health_care

This insuring a GOV monopoly by driving out any competitors.

[AsteroidX]

Quote

It is not illegal but it is illegal for private clinics to charge more than the 'above the agreed-upon fee schedule unless they are treating non-insured persons (which may include those eligible under automobile insurance or worker's compensation, in addition to those who are not Canadian residents), or providing non-insured services.'  http://en.wikipedia....ded_health_care

This insuring a GOV monopoly by driving out any competitors.

I think I qualify. But what did I win ?

[acidhead]

OldN8Dogg, on 27 February 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

Really.  We take away government enforced rights, and everyone is suddenly treated as equals?  While I love the utopian vision you portray, a few thousand years of history and common sense dictate that in the absence of governmentally "enforced" equality, those with the either the greatest numbers, the greatest funds, or the greatest strength will rise to the top and oppress or othewise control those beneath them.  Yes, 89% of the world is religions, but within that 89% are many different religions, some of whom, without a government to prevent them, may decide that they are powerful enough to force everyone to be like them.  Whether there is a government or not, it is human nature to try to control things.  At least with a government, those decisions are made by all citizens with a vote.  As an individual you won't win every time, but at least the will of the majority is carried through.  Sure, it's not perfect, but good grief, it's a lot better than what happens in societies with no rule.



Let's be clear.  You are not paying for all of that ambulance ride and hospital visit.  You are paying for a small portion of it.  As are all citizens of Canada, so as to be able to take care of each other as a nation.  A family member married a non-citizen, and while she lives in Canada, she is not yet a citizen.  They had a baby at the end of last year.  Coincidentally, so did my wife and I.  My wife and I did not pay a single dime to have the baby.  We had to pay for the privelege of having a semi private room, but that was all.  The family member whose wife was not a citizen had to go nearly $20 000 (she had to have a c-section, which increased the price, but would also have been free for my wife had she needed it) in debt because she was not a citizen, and was therefore charged what it ACTUALLY costs to have a child.

That's how your "libertarian" system would look in terms of healthcare, in one example.  That's "paying" for health care.  Extend that to infrastructure, defense, law and order, etc.  Either you're living in a complete gong show, or you're living in the stone age.  Most likely both.  Or, corporations take over, and then you're in really fine shape.

Yes, pure libertarianism does have some attractive traits.  So did pure communisim.  We all know how that worked out.  Radical ideas like this look great on paper, but never work out in real life, and you know why?  Because humans are humans.  I am frustrated with our government.  I think everyone everywhere is.  There are ineffciencies, there are mistakes, there are corruptions.  But on the whole it's better than your alternative, because along with the bad there is the good, and through a democratic process we can work at making it better.   Your "radical" idea is to simply give up.  Sorry, I don't buy it.

The GOV doesn't grant you rights.  The GOV's job is to protect your rights as a individual citizen of a free country.  A nation under laws which are supposed to defend your liberty.  If I'm correct from your replies you believe it's the GOV who grants rights?

Health care insurance in Canada is a GOV run monopoly.  It is a Provincial and Federal funded insurance corporation.  And it's tax funded so the corporation can never fail unless the currency of Canada fails.  As long as GOV runs the operation the general perception among the public will be that it will never fail.  This perception also leads to abuse of taxed funds to maintain the GOV healthcare system.  There is no such thing as a free lunch especially when GOV is involved.   In the end YOU keep paying and paying.

Libertarian is the exact opposite of Communist. Greed cannot be controlled, I agree, but the best we can do as a free society, is defend the rights of others as a whole(100%) rather then separating everybody into groups so the general perception is that we are not the same.  This perception when defended in law creates more victims because it establishes a false excuse for the overall crime to begin with.  The "radical idea" is to push forward regardless the obstacle.  Punish the players and advance wiser.  Bailing out the too-bigs... that included GOV healthcare, was "giving up" bud, not pushing forward. That was kicking the can down the road and granting 'greed' a free pass.

Edited by acidhead, 04 March 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[OldN8Dogg]

Whew...  Ok, here we go.  

acidhead, on 04 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

The GOV doesn't grant you rights.  The GOV's job is to protect your rights as a individual citizen of a free country.  A nation under laws which are supposed to defend your liberty.  If I'm correct from your replies you believe it's the GOV who grants rights?

I think the government defines the rights.  How else does a right become a right?  I can sit here and say that I have a right to drive my car backwards everywhere I go, but unless society accepts and supports that right, that's just me talking.  And in the current model, government represents the official body to declare what society accepts as a right.

But my main point agrees with yours - the government's job is to protect my rights.  Exactly.

acidhead, on 04 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Health care insurance in Canada is a GOV run monopoly.  It is a Provincial and Federal funded insurance corporation.  And it's tax funded so the corporation can never fail unless the currency of Canada fails.  As long as GOV runs the operation the general perception among the public will be that it will never fail.  This perception also leads to abuse of taxed funds to maintain the GOV healthcare system.  There is no such thing as a free lunch especially when GOV is involved.   In the end YOU keep paying and paying.

Health care in Canada is a service.  There are other providers to whom you can go for healthcare.  For example, my work benefits will cover chiropractors, homeopaths, reflexologists, etc., that the government would not pay for.  There are also private clinics in Canada that you can choose to go to.  But when there is a perfectly good health care system in Canada that we pay for with our taxes, obviously the largest portion of the population use it.  Yes, we pay through our taxes.  We subsidize each other, so that no one needs to choose between necessary health care or financial ruin.  To me that's a good thing.  I don't know under which model you can suggest that's bad.

acidhead, on 04 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Libertarian is the exact opposite of Communist.

Perhaps in it's ideology, but not in it's validity.

acidhead, on 04 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Greed cannot be controlled, I agree, but the best we can do as a free society, is defend the rights of others as a whole(100%) rather then separating everybody into groups so the general perception is that we are not the same.

But that's what the government does as well.  How do you identify the rights of everyone if you do not acknolwedge that people are different, and therefore need to be recognized as different groups in order to understand what their individual requirements are.  The only way your idea works is if everyone was forced to be the same, in which case no one's rights are protected.

acidhead, on 04 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

This perception when defended in law creates more victims because it establishes a false excuse for the overall crime to begin with.  The "radical idea" is to push forward regardless the obstacle.  Punish the players and advance wiser.  Bailing out the too-bigs... that included GOV healthcare, was "giving up" bud, not pushing forward. That was kicking the can down the road and granting 'greed' a free pass.

I'm sorry, bailing out was not giving up.  It was investing in our economy to ensure that Canadians still had jobs to go to.  Much, if not all, of that money has been repaid.  Sure, there is greed in the business world.  One could argue that without greed we wouldn't have many of the comforts we enjoy today, because fewer people would bother inventing anything.  Would you have that TV or that car or anything else if someone, somewhere, some time couldn't have made a buck to produce it?

Acidhead, I see that you believe in this, and will likely not be convinced otherwise.  But believe me, while I'm for some reductions in government, and improved effciencies in all government, I think it's foolish to think that our society would exist as it does, with the comforts and securities that we enjoy, without it.