150 replies to this topic

[third_eye]

IamsSon, on 06 March 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Is it rational to expect something irrational to be a proper test of anything or anyone?

Only for the irrational

[The Id3al Experience]

danielost, on 20 February 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

I think the answer yes it has a boundry, and it is infinite at the same time

Edit, I was an idoit haha

Edited by The Id3al Experience, 07 March 2013 - 12:37 AM.

[bom shankra]

braveone2u, on 04 March 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

- cut -

Lucifer ("morning star")? That's a completely different "extensive" story. You may want to follow this link to start your journey:
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=242570

In most cases, people who have experienced the presence of a divine being will tell you about this feeling of "love beyond compare" engulfing their heart and being. It's unmistakable. That, I can personally tell you.

Peace.

hi brave1,  I started my journey a long time ago, you might even say I'm crossing over jordan already.  What I'll say is that your right, some people undoubtedly do (think they) need to believe in 'someone', not to put too finer point on it, I personally only need to believe in myself.

bom shankra~

[bom shankra]

third_eye, on 02 March 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

The emperor was convinced to replace it with this :



because there was unrest and turmoil at the time and the auspicious dateline to place the thing in the mausoleum has to be kept to a strict schedule.

3rd eye, thats tiny...LOL.

Seriously,  I think the biggest problem was the fact the stella weighed 16000 tonnes, It was a truly Un-moveable object. Biggest stone ever moved is the "thuder stone" and weighed 1500 tonnes, moved 6km in 1770 (to be found in st petersburg russia).

[third_eye]

bom shankra, on 08 March 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

3rd eye, thats tiny...LOL.

Seriously,  I think the biggest problem was the fact the stella weighed 16000 tonnes, It was a truly Un-moveable object. Biggest stone ever moved is the "thuder stone" and weighed 1500 tonnes, moved 6km in 1770 (to be found in st petersburg russia).

Don't scoff at 'tiny'
If you look at the background history it's a miracle that they even got that made

One thing you must know about the court builders of the time, they know their business, they have the know how and has the confidence, otherwise you'll never make it to status of imperial architect. You don't deliver you loose your head. In China there is history of many similar size foundations but are usually categorized in modern times as 'bedrock' because they were was so large. Conclusive evidence aren't always available due to the fact that the First Emperor purged the imperial records so it usually is outside the academic records, a lot were of the monoliths were broken down into 'manageable' blocks for re use.
THere is an effort recently to comb through the historical records of architectural plans outside of the imperial records, which survived. Initial studies were too biased with a western viewpoint because the earliest scholars were trained at western institutions of higher learning, they didn't know what they were looking at, nor were very interested either, it was after all in the late sixties.
Now they're looking at things in a whole new light. They treat their scientific ancestors with more respect and reverence.

I know of "thunder stone" if you can move thunder stone you can move that monument base at the YangShan quarry. They didn't have the time.

[bom shankra]

hi again  #3i. Please forgive me if I have jumped too hastily to a conclusion, The formula I used was 'biggest stone ever moved' compared to one over 'ten times' bigger, that 'wasn't' moved = 'conclusive proof of impossibility'

However... I did a bit of research into the 'thunderstone', -as already mentioned, it was only moved 6km inland to the shore (where it was loaded on a mamoth barge), and presumably on a flat to gentle gradient, where as the giant stele at yangshan quarry is just over 15km as the crow flies from the ming xiaoling mauseleum (perhaps it will be over 20km by the time you've established a sensible route that keeps as even a gradient as possible). Also thats presuming that that would have been the intended site for erection, I don't know,do you know #3i?

So far then, so good, a question of scale possibly.  Ten times heavier, three or four times further away, but all downhill which is a big help ( BTW, I'm less than 60 kg, and I can pull over one and a half tonnes loaded on a pallet truck, but only on level ground, even the slightest gradient makes the task exponentially more difficult. The pallet truck has good bearings of course, and its ergonomiclly ideal for me to pull).  What I discovered about the Thunderstone was that it also was pulled on bearings (a form of linear bearing, utilizing 6" bronze balls, in between a sledge track, and the track on the ground). Also, the man power was surprisingly minimal: 400 men in total, but with as few as 32 applying the 'moving' force by a mechanism described simply as capstans (something that needed to be rotated, like a car jack etc.). and they achieved 150m a day some days.

So, use 4000 men, extra bearings extra track scaled up sledge etc, allow a few years, and "perhaps" the stele could have been moved. I would say there would be a number of factors that would have needed resolving (terrain would be one of the primary ones), as in when you scale up a project other obstacles and unknowns can present themselves, also the engineering would have been quite critical I believe.  i.e. I dont think rolling on logs etc would have been quite so effective.

I guess the incentive of keeping your head on your shoulders would help galvanize the work force somewhat!



So its a 'maybe' then,  but ultimately we'll never know.

Edited by bom shankra, 09 March 2013 - 10:15 PM.

[third_eye]

bom shankra, on 09 March 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

~over thinking snip

I guess the incentive of keeping your head on your shoulders would help galvanize the work force somewhat!

So its a 'maybe' then,  but ultimately we'll never know.

When you make it to the Imperial Court actually you have very little to fear, one of the few in the land that can veto the emperor are the 'advisers'
up to the point where even the emperor's sexual activity was under the advisory of these Imperial Council when heir is deemed strategic to the empire.
So if the Imperial Architect thought that the stele is too much, he would know the emperor is setting himself up for a fall, and would have advised accordingly.
They even knew to the exact date the stone had to be raised at the mausoleum, but things happened that made it impossible to make it in tome for the chosen auspicious date so was abandoned.

YOu're over thinking it , you don't fight gravity, you inch the block ahead one painful inch at a time all the way, no wheels no logs
You let gravity take a hold on it and a hundred thousand men won't get it back

a chinese saying 'shi liang guo jian jin' loosely meaning four ounces over a thousand pounds

it is somewhat like that saying about levers ....

Quote

Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. -Archimedes.

A book I'm reading now : Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle
I think there is a line in there that goes : How did they (ancestors) move those great big boulders ?
The answer given ?

'pure dumb fear'

I would have said 'reverence'
I'm going into the looking glass

[bom shankra]

third_eye, on 10 March 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

YOu're over thinking it ,

thats what my boss says to me when he gives me a mind bogglingly complicated job to do in the morning, and its not finished by mid day -                    
- anyway, I've got to employ all my powers of reason and deduction when entering a debate with you #3i, because your too smart for me...LOL.
The archimedes quote was the first post that kicked off this thread, (not only can god not make a rock he can't move, he can't make one I can't either...) - archimedes is expecting to be 'given' a suitable lever, and a 'dependable' fulcrum, so it's really a rhetorical point he's making.

allow me take a liberty on account of your reference to a science fiction writer if I may, and make a comparison of the project attempted by this Yongle Emperor to a modern day project that is presently in progress, namely, the space elevator.  The space elevator is a line stretched from the earths surface to a geostationary satelite base, that can carry a payload up and down to space.

Now without jumping on google, I can tell you there is a private company that have set a deadline to deliver this commodity, the plan is to sign off on it in 2050.  As far as i know from memory, the construction is a long way away, first of all a couple of issues have to be resolved.  the plan is to take a 'line' made of a special carbon material called nano tubes, and lower the line down from orbit to the earths surface, and anchor it.  As you might imagine, the line needs to be strong, even to support its own weight, let alone a payload.  so strong in fact, that there is presently no material known that will achieve the task. These nano tubes are the strongest thing in existence, though only minute amounts of them have yet been produced, and even then, they're still not strong enough - don't worry though, these guys are positive (have a hunch at least) that they can do a bit of trickery with them, and get over the tensile strengh threshold. the rest of the project should then all fall into place.

I would call this an ambitious project, in the same way as the Yongel emperors.

I wonder if 'reverance' for the mighty dollar in this case will have the desired result?  

[third_eye]

bom shankra, on 10 March 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

thats what my boss says to me when he gives me a mind bogglingly complicated job to do in the morning, and its not finished by mid day -
- anyway, I've got to employ all my powers of reason and deduction when entering a debate with you #3i, because your too smart for me...LOL.
The archimedes quote was the first post that kicked off this thread, (not only can god not make a rock he can't move, he can't make one I can't either...) - archimedes is expecting to be 'given' a suitable lever, and a 'dependable' fulcrum, so it's really a rhetorical point he's making.

Not as I see it, archimedes knows there is no such stone that can't be lifted .... whether there is a fulcrum or level available that can do the job or not
If you have the levels and fulcrums ... there is no such thing as a rock that can't be lifted
four ounces over a thousand pounds ... why four ounces ? why not three ? or two or one ?

Quote

allow me take a liberty on account of your reference to a science fiction writer if I may, and make a comparison of the project attempted by this Yongle Emperor to a modern day project that is presently in progress, namely, the space elevator. The space elevator is a line stretched from the earths surface to a geostationary satelite base, that can carry a payload up and down to space.

Now without jumping on google, I can tell you there is a private company that have set a deadline to deliver this commodity, the plan is to sign off on it in 2050.  As far as i know from memory, the construction is a long way away, first of all a couple of issues have to be resolved.  the plan is to take a 'line' made of a special carbon material called nano tubes, and lower the line down from orbit to the earths surface, and anchor it.  As you might imagine, the line needs to be strong, even to support its own weight, let alone a payload.  so strong in fact, that there is presently no material known that will achieve the task. These nano tubes are the strongest thing in existence, though only minute amounts of them have yet been produced, and even then, they're still not strong enough - don't worry though, these guys are positive (have a hunch at least) that they can do a bit of trickery with them, and get over the tensile strengh threshold. the rest of the project should then all fall into place.

I would call this an ambitious project, in the same way as the Yongel emperors.

I wonder if 'reverance' for the mighty dollar in this case will have the desired result?  

overthinking at its best

[bom shankra]

I give up... ! it's off topic anyway ...

Edited by bom shankra, 11 March 2013 - 04:31 AM.

[Doctor manhattan]

Frank Merton, on 20 February 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Thanks but that's myth.

lol. says the talking about god.

[Silver Surfer]

suns are sentient.

[Frank Merton]

Oh dear would I ever like to see a space elevator instead of rockets. Once installed it would make getting into space so much cheaper.

For putting people into space though we will probably always have to use rockets.  The ascent in such an elevator would take days, during which there would be constant exposure to the Van Allen radiation belts, and adequate shielding would not be possible without making the thing unworkable.

To get this on topic, do you suppose God could make effective shielding that doesn't weigh anything?

[third_eye]

Frank Merton, on 11 March 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

~snip

To get this on topic, do you suppose God could make effective shielding that doesn't weigh anything?

why would god even need something like that ?

Edited by third_eye, 11 March 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[danielost]

Watching the bible on history channel.  Something struck me, I am going to have to walk back a little on god knowing everrything.

The story is about sodom, he had to send angels to the city to see if it was as evil as its cries said it was.  On top of that Abraham was able to talk him down to five good people and he wouldn't destroy the city.