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The EU is on the blitz against Eurosceptics.

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#91    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:18 PM

I suspect the reason why our Euroskeptics haven't rushed forward to answer this uncomfortable question is because the type of person who believe that its the right of UK to be independent, are also exactly the same people who would never offer the same choice to their neighbouring countries. I wonder what strange quirk of logic allows that ?

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#92    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:07 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

I suspect the reason why our Euroskeptics haven't rushed forward to answer this uncomfortable question is because the type of person who believe that its the right of UK to be independent, are also exactly the same people who would never offer the same choice to their neighbouring countries. I wonder what strange quirk of logic allows that ?

Br Cornelius

That is purely your assumption. Personally i'd vote in favour of independance for Scotland Wales & northern Ireland, as long as they didn't expect the English taxpayer to fund that independance.
Somehow i don't think they would last long if they had to survive on the tax revenues they raised from their own population
e.g.  Quote :-

Plaid Cymru Treasury spokesperson, Jonathan Edwards MP  

“Wales will be hit particularly hard as a far greater percentage of our population are recipients of Tax Credits and/or benefits.

“Therefore, the real-term cut in these entitlements will inevitably have a dramatic effect on the amount of money spent in local economic across Wales''


and he's just talking about the recent cuts in benefits, so how do you think they would fair without any revenue from the UK taxpayer?

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 24 February 2013 - 04:28 PM.

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#93    stevewinn

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:20 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Can I ask a simple side question.
What do the Euroskeptics feel about independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern ireland ?

Br Cornelius

my stance on the issue is this, i'd rather they remained members of the United Kingdom, but like we see with Scotland, they can call a referendum and vote on the issue, i have no problem with self determination.

its just a shame we never got the referendum on our continued membership of the EU. but with the polls showing just 33% would vote to remain members. it has the politicians running scared.

to bring it back to the EU. why doesn't the EU hold in/out referendums in every member country. and see how they fare. if the EU is as good as we are told there should be nothing to fear.

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#94    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:33 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Can I ask a simple side question.
What do the Euroskeptics feel about independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern ireland ?

Br Cornelius
By all means let them, if only to stop them moaning. (NI of course is a different question, as long as the majority want to remain part of the UK it should stay). but if the majority of the Scots or the Welsh ever wanted to (and it doesn't seem very likely), by all means let them. And as long, of course, as they don't expect England to continue to support them.

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#95    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:38 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

the type of person who believe that its the right of UK to be independent

It's the right of the UK to be independent.

View Postitsnotoutthere, on 24 February 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

That is purely your assumption. Personally i'd vote in favour of independance for Scotland Wales & northern Ireland, as long as they didn't expect the English taxpayer to fund that independance.


I'd vote in favour of English independence.  I don't give a stuff about Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 24 February 2013 - 05:38 PM.


#96    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

I suspect the reason why our Euroskeptics haven't rushed forward to answer this uncomfortable question is because the type of person who believe that its the right of UK to be independent, are also exactly the same people who would never offer the same choice to their neighbouring countries. I wonder what strange quirk of logic allows that ?

Br Cornelius

So you are criticising people for not wanting to allow others to decide the fate of their own nation. Pot calling the kettle black.


#97    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:12 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 24 February 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

So you are criticising people for not wanting to allow others to decide the fate of their own nation. Pot calling the kettle black.
I am criticising the type of people who would deny self determination to the British Regions but expect it for the UK. Last time I looked the only party with that stance was the conservatives.

Br Cornelius

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#98    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:33 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

I am criticising the type of people who would deny self determination to the British Regions but expect it for the UK. Last time I looked the only party with that stance was the conservatives.

Br Cornelius
has David Cameron forbidden Alex Salmon from holding this referendum he's been talking about for so long? He's tried to dissuade him from it, but that's not the same as denying him the right. New Labour might well have done so, though, being as control-obssessed as they were.

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#99    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:48 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

I am criticising the type of people who would deny self determination to the British Regions but expect it for the UK. Last time I looked the only party with that stance was the conservatives.

Br Cornelius

From wiki :-

In its manifesto for the 2007 Scottish Parliament election, the SNP pledged to hold an independence referendum by 2010.[24][25] After winning the election,[26] the SNP-controlled Scottish Government published a White Paper entitled Choosing Scotland's Future, which outlined options for the future of Scotland, including independence.[27][28]

At the time, Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Liberal Democrats opposed a referendum offering independence as an option. Then Prime Minister Gordon Brown also publicly attacked the independence option.[29] Based on a subsequent debate in the Scottish Parliament,[30] the three main parties opposed to independence formed the Calman commission.[31][32] This reviewed devolution and considered all constitutional options bar independence.[33]


Careful, your prejudices are showing or is it just a selective memory?

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 24 February 2013 - 09:32 PM.

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#100    Professor T

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:57 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

I suspect the reason why our Euroskeptics haven't rushed forward to answer this uncomfortable question is because the type of person who believe that its the right of UK to be independent, are also exactly the same people who would never offer the same choice to their neighbouring countries. I wonder what strange quirk of logic allows that ?

Br Cornelius

What most of you UK Europeans seem to have forgotten is that When the UK joined the common market/EU all of the trade ties with the commonwealth were severed.. And I for one remember the resession we suffered here in New Zealand because we could no longer export any product into Europe...

The answer to your question is simple imo, The Euopean union has far to many strings attached.. Far to many Rules and regulations to be adhered too. It is nighmarish to think that these burocrats in Brussels have so much power over Europe imo.. These laws and regulations and financial strings attached to trade and any transaction are actually more like handcuffs than strings from my pospective here about as far away from Europe as you can get..


#101    spud the mackem

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:51 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

They have joined because they see the benefit it has brought to the countries who have already joined. Structural adjustment acts like a long term loan - that is all and everyone understands the deal.

Br Cornelius
  LoL, do you honestly think that the likes of Albania,Bulgaria,Macedonia etcetera, if /when they get a "long term loan" as you put it,will be able to pay it back( With Interest ), you're having a laugh.These countries have been scratting around for years on the poverty line,and if they do get any handouts it will go straight into the Pockets (Banks) of their Dictators,and the people will never see the benefits.Who bailed out your country by the way ?.

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#102    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:58 PM

View Postspud the mackem, on 24 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

LoL, do you honestly think that the likes of Albania,Bulgaria,Macedonia etcetera, if /when they get a "long term loan" as you put it,will be able to pay it back( With Interest ), you're having a laugh.These countries have been scratting around for years on the poverty line,and if they do get any handouts it will go straight into the Pockets (Banks) of their Dictators,and the people will never see the benefits.Who bailed out your country by the way ?.

Nice.

Those corrupt foreign Johnnys. meanwhile we all turn a blind eye to the white collar corruption which takes place every day in the square mile and systematically robs the world - so much cleaner, so much nicer :w00t:  

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 24 February 2013 - 10:58 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

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#103    Professor T

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 12:32 AM

Wow.. 6 1/2 pages of Eurosceptics and Europhiles going at each other like it's a free-for-all chest beating exersize. :lol:
I guess this is a good point to remind everyone what this thread is all about, and that is that the European union are consciously going to send out into these forums trolls who will seek out Eurosceptics & attack their logic in these threads.. They will try to influcence Public opinion in these threads.. They are worse than the Spam posters we already get now because these guy's & gals will be disguising their pro EU Agenda as healthy Debate..

If it does happen here...
How on Earth are we supposed to filter out these EU Spam Posters from real EU supporters?

These I think are the rules the EU will be breaking if they come here to UM..

Quote

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#104    A rather obscure Bassoon

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:31 AM

View PostProfessor T, on 25 February 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Wow.. 6 1/2 pages of Eurosceptics and Europhiles going at each other like it's a free-for-all chest beating exersize. :lol:
I guess this is a good point to remind everyone what this thread is all about, and that is that the European union are consciously going to send out into these forums trolls who will seek out Eurosceptics & attack their logic in these threads.. They will try to influcence Public opinion in these threads.. They are worse than the Spam posters we already get now because these guy's & gals will be disguising their pro EU Agenda as healthy Debate..

If it does happen here...
How on Earth are we supposed to filter out these EU Spam Posters from real EU supporters?

These I think are the rules the EU will be breaking if they come here to UM..


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#105    Black Red Devil

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:49 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 24 February 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

that's correct, yes, look at a map. To the left: the US, Canada & the countries in Western Europe that were part of NATO. To the right: The Warsaw Pact. In the middle, and militarily irrelevant, the EU. LOL why?

Got no idea what EU in the middle and militarily irrelevant you're referring to. :unsure2: Maybe Switzerland, but they're the only ones that aren't part of the EU.

Anyway, lets assume you're pulling my leg and that you know NATO and the Warsaw Pact are/were military alliances created to safeguard their borders from invaders from the opposite side.  Let's also assume you know that the EU is composed of most NATO and Warsaw Pact members minus the US, Russia and Canada.
I suppose it is debatable whether the EU should be given the full credit for 60 years of peace, or rather NATO and the Warsaw Pact members of the time, who dealt with maintaining peace by pointing something like 80,000 nuclear warheads at each other towards the 80's.  The US alone had close to a third (10,000 out of 35,000) in bases in Europe during the cold war.  Basically, a bit like trying to light a match in the dark inside a canister of gas.  Or maybe, as the US posters on UM would want you to believe, more weapons = more security and less danger.

Then again, the EU did win the 2012 Nobel Prize for 60 years of Peace in Europe so let's give credit where credit is due and not try to burst even that bubble shall we?

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 25 February 2013 - 04:31 AM.

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