148 replies to this topic

[Knight Of Shadows]

freetoroam, on 25 February 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

You are right, the Pagans were not killed, they were slaughtered!

As for the  bold......this is exactly what  the religions have done.  The pagans had been here for centuries before the muslims and christians came along, and when they do come along....war!!!
Today islam is the one religion where in certain countries they will not tolerate other religions...is this what has been taught to them from their forefathers?

look if you want to discuss pagans do a new topic
am already stretched enough in this wide topic without asserting pagans to it
and you have the tendency to keep bringin up irrelevant things
sorry but am pretty focused on islamic golden age now and how it improved science
if you want talk about pagans start new topic i'd gladly share what i know from this part of the world's history about pagans

[freetoroam]

Knight Of Shadows, on 25 February 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

look if you want to discuss pagans do a new topic
am already stretched enough in this wide topic without asserting pagans to it
and you have the tendency to keep bringin up irrelevant things
sorry but am pretty focused on islamic golden age now and how it improved science
if you want talk about pagans start new topic i'd gladly share what i know from this part of the world's history about pagans

Ok, no probs. I will not mention Pagans as long as you do not mention the islamic golden egg age.

[Knight Of Shadows]

freetoroam, on 25 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Ok, no probs. I will not mention Pagans as long as you do not mention the islamic golden egg age.

very mature

[freetoroam]

Knight Of Shadows, on 25 February 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

very mature

the egg bit? I know, but funny from here.

[Knight Of Shadows]

freetoroam, on 25 February 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

the egg bit? I know, but funny from here.

i don't think making fun of any religion will improve this debate
sorry i don't find any humor i'll withdraw to shadows for now till something worth discussion is on table

[freetoroam]

But its a cheque book, an invention by an islamic man.

[OverSword]

D) Impossible to say

[Darkwind]

freetoroam, on 25 February 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Paganism IS NOT A RELIGION!
It is a way of life, respect for nature and respecting what it can do for you as a whole and what nature can do against you as a whole.

There were/are no books to read about gods or prophets telling you how to live and worship them in Paganism. Its is about nature and what comes from the mind and within.


Quickest ways to make a million, start a religion.
L.Ron Hubbard.

Depends on what kind of Paganism is practiced. Wicca has as much dogma as the Calholic Church.

Frank Merton, on 25 February 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

A lot of art has been destroyed by religions too.

That is for sure, the Afghan Buddhas comes to mind.  A lot of burnt books and lost knowledge too.

All that being said, this is MY thread and I think we should end the, "which religion is the worse or the best." bickering,  I think we have beat that horse to death.  Lets keep it a little more general.

[Professor T]

libstaK, on 25 February 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

The same would occur should the man or woman be of a particular nation aka: political persuasion.  Conformity is asked of people in all societies, societal laws are passed to ensure conformity to the beliefs of the nation they live in, be these secular or religious beliefs.

I think the point that if there were no religion we would still have battled through the ages because of differences in belief (not religious but any belief) has been lost, soccer/football/sporting fans of all persuasion battle for their colours/teams.  People have used not just religion but societal "mores" as reasons to judge and condemn others in every corner of the globe, tribal beliefs have been the cause of entire generations battling to the death with their neighbours, regardless of belief in the same God or faith.

I am not excusing religion for it's past atrocities merely stating that humans who have the will and capacity to cause such harm and judgements on others will latch onto a reason to do what they will - religion can just as often be the victim of subjugation and manipulation by minds filled with lust for blood and power over others.

hmmmmmmmmmmm, This was a very enlightening post, Thanks

I do however think that the last sentence is slightly dislexic in stating that humans who have the will and capacity to cause such harm and judgements on others will latch onto a reason to do that. I think that statement is the wrong way around, I think that these reasons, religious or otherwise, attach themselves to humans and drive the capacity to cause harm.

[Professor T]

freetoroam, on 25 February 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

I agree with this:

so please let's put " religious differences " aside and put things in their true prospective

But this thread is about religion and whether we think it has made the world a better place.

That is the most inteligent thing I've seen on this thread so far imo

freetoroam, on 25 February 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

I never said they did not invent anything, i said out of all the things invented throughout the world, the muslims were not the first and it did not make them a world leader or power. China, Europe and Africa can all claim a few discoveries.
Its that Knight of Shadows was trying to make out that islam were the leaders. So what, they invented a few things, a fountain pen and chess and a few other things, woop woop! The rest of the world would not have stopped without them.
As I also said, what good did it do for them today? if the muslims were all that clever they would not be killing each other on their own streets.
All this bickering about "my religion did this, and my religion did that" just proves why I voted worse! wars have been fought over this sort of bickering over religions throughout the centuries..."my religion is better than yours!!!!"
Why give the credit to islam, what about the man who invented it? or are they below islam?


I agree with this:

so please let's put " religious differences " aside and put things in their true prospective

But this thread is about religion and whether we think it has made the world a better place.

I dont think I questioned you aroud the invention of anything, must be a wire crossed here in such a fast moving thread..
My statement to you was that an islamic nations did have a golden age.. I've seen a doco or too about it on TV.. it happened, big deal.. I'm not going to rush off to google-land to find evidence about something I already believe happened just so I can  feed an egotistic debate about religion. Like I said before, Religion takes credit where it's not due..

[danielost]

freetoroam, on 25 February 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

the egg bit? I know, but funny from here.

World peace.  By the way Christ would see the funny .

[Professor Buzzkill]

I voted that religion does neither good or bad. It's not strictly my opinion but was the best of the options.

I believe that spirituality (read that as "personal religion") has made this world a better place. I cannot say the same about organised religion. Organised religion relies on the appeal to authority, be they preists/rabbis etc, to tell you what to believe and how to interpret certain things. Ultimately that perception of authority comes back to a belief that the preist/rabbi has a more direct link to the mind of god than you do, and what they tell you needs to be believed. So basically, as possible in any situation when you let others do your thinking for you, religion can be used to mislead.

[SpiritWriter]

Professor T, on 24 February 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

Ahhh, I see now..

Thanks.. debate caused by misunderstanding..

I percieve Religion and Spirituality as two sperate things that are often mistaken for the same thing..
Spirituality imo is a deep inner perception of reality broken down into raw emotions at an individual level.. In short, it's raw awareness, raw being, raw consciousness..  
Religion on the other-hand is an organised & structured assembly of law set to govern multiple groups of people.. In short, it's organised awareness that is hierarchical.  

Spirituality imo is vital to being human..
Religion on the other hand, has held us back because of it's hierarchical nature.. But not only is it hierarchical, it has evolved over millenia to become dogmatic, self serving, self replicating, viral in it's structures of belief and spread throughout history.. lol, don't get be started.. But that is of course, only looking at the negative atributes.. there were positive changes within some religions, though these imo are far outwighed by the harm that religion has wrought..

I still don't see though, how religion is intergral in the formation of society, of playing a part in the formation of nuclear families ect... What I do see though today in this age, is a natural progression away from Religion into Science or politics as being the controlling element of society.. so, perhaps you do have a point,

Yeah I think the point of religion is the spiritual aspect but others have made it hierarchial.. depends on how you look at it. It is definately changing and I think well find these new "spiritual" people will want to make practices of thier beliefs that they can share in groups if people.. at that point it becomes a religion. There is also nothing wrong with gaining from the "religions" that came before us. But we need to be clear about addressing these things in a spiritual way.. that way our eyes will interpret our own actions and those around us. Religion is about learning and growing spiritually. I believe any teachings that falsify, take advantage of (abuse), mutilate this attempt should be called to awareness. There is no one so close to god that they cannot learn from another. We spend more time tearing each other down for our beliefs than being open to the spirit that would bring us closer if not understand that indeed we are one and come from the same powerful creative force. Many are afraid of the spiritual and thats why they reject it, others are mad at religion and the evils it has done and now entirely reject the idea of "God". I hope they are just as mad at non-religious entities that are ruining the world, and can see the evil runs deep, its about power, not about the true essence of where religion stems from and is still useful for when used properly.

[Mr Walker]

Ryu, on 24 February 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Spirituality has nothing to do with religion..the two terms are not synonymous.
Religion is merely a organization filled with memorized rituals whereas 'spirituality' deals with how we relate to the world and how our views affect us and others.

Anyways, I voted 'irrelevant' only because while I detest religion I also know that people use their religion to rationalize whatever they do be it good or bad rather than understanding that real actions have real re-actions.

Actually religion is to spirituality as philosophy is to logic. All humans are spiritual as a part of our evolved paterns of thinking. Because of those same patterns of thinking, we are also subject to other drivers, like the need to belong, the tendency to identify sameness and difference, and the tendency to fear the unknown and cling to the known. Hence we tend to group into clans, tribes, families, sports teams, trade unions, and religious groups.

Thus religions form out of human spirituality, like sports teams form from human physical ability and a tendency towards competitveness.
Religion is NOT primarily an imposed condition. It is a chosen one. Humans choose religion  because it fulfils primal human needs and, in general, improves their physical and psychological condition. In addition it answers metaphorical questions which our level of self awareness creates within us.

  A child unexposed to religion will create its own rituals and behaviours, ie religion, based around its own self developed beliefs about self and non self , agents and non agents, which it observes from birth.

[Mr Walker]

maxhobbs, on 25 February 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

How could anyone possibly think religion has made the world better??

Simply by imagining, or using logical extrapolation, to envisage a world in which humans did not have the capacity required to develop religious beliefs, Such humans would not BE human. They would not have imagination they would not have hope they would probably not even have free will. They would not have a level of intelligence or self awareness which recognised patterns, agents and non agents, etc. All the abilities which lead us to develop religious behaviours.

They would not group in like groups and so would tend to be individualists, with no concern for others and no need to develop relationships with others based on mutual beliefs and concerns.
And in physical terms the world would have lost so much and gained almost nothing. There would still be wars, murders, theft, rapes etc based on our evolved animal behaviours. These things occur in the non human non religious animal world, as much as they do in the human world. Only the technology and sheer numerical dispersal of humanity makes us seem any worse.