Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Do you think " humans " are over populated?


  • Please log in to reply
146 replies to this topic

#106    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 23,867 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:10 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 March 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

That means that we should have a population that is as great as the world can sustain indefinitely at an excellent living standard and no more.
Out of curiousity... What number would you peg onto that "as great as the world can sustain"?

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#107    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,798 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:26 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 08 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Out of curiousity... What number would you peg onto that "as great as the world can sustain"?
There's a scientific answer to that and it aint 10billion - or even seven.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#108    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 17,137 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:37 AM

Yes, I guess I am anthropocentric.  I have my doubts that the way things are in nature is at all desirable.  The animals live short brutal suffering lives and then are eaten or die of some horrible disease.

This business of "right to life" is a bit arbitrary.  Do you object to spraying for termites or getting rid of tape worms?  Where do you draw the line?


#109    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,798 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:17 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 08 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Yes, I guess I am anthropocentric.  I have my doubts that the way things are in nature is at all desirable.  The animals live short brutal suffering lives and then are eaten or die of some horrible disease.

This business of "right to life" is a bit arbitrary.  Do you object to spraying for termites or getting rid of tape worms?  Where do you draw the line?
I would be very reluctant to swat a spider if it didn't present a direct threat to me. However some species cohabiting with humans are incompatible (termites been an example). The solution is don't cover all of the termites territory with human habitation and give them an adequate space to make their contribution to the web of life.
The real issue here is that many species have been driven to extinction or are on the verge of extinction. They will never come back and they will be lost from their role in the greater scheme of things. That is an unacceptable state of affairs.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#110    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 17,137 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:36 AM

I think you go too far in your worship of nature at the expense of human beings.  There are a few extinctions, such as smallpox, that don't worry me.  It is also a simple fact that 99% of all species that have ever lived are extinct, long before we showed up.

With proper management, humans and animals can do well together, and probably one day resurrect the more recently extinct species.


#111    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,798 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:50 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 08 March 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

I think you go too far in your worship of nature at the expense of human beings.  There are a few extinctions, such as smallpox, that don't worry me.  It is also a simple fact that 99% of all species that have ever lived are extinct, long before we showed up.

With proper management, humans and animals can do well together, and probably one day resurrect the more recently extinct species.
Natural extinctions are very different to human induced extinctions. We have a choice to make something extinct.

This image which shows the increase in annual rate of extinctions (not the cumulative total) puts what we are doing into stark perspective;

Posted Image

Quote

Biocide is occurring at an alarming rate. Experts say that at least half of the world’s current species will be completely gone by the end of the century. Wild plant-life is also disappearing. Most biologists say that we are in the midst of an anthropogenic mass extinction. Numerous scientific studies confirm that this phenomenon is real and happening right now. Should anyone really care? Will it impact individuals on a personal level? Scientists say, “Yes!”


http://www.dailygala...d_bigger_t.html

At the very least we should be viewing this in terms of its inevitable consequences for ourselves.
For me the loss of diversity and the fact that it will take millions of years for it to return is a very heavy burden to weigh on my mind.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 08 March 2013 - 11:54 AM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#112    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 15,248 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:53 AM

Instead of getting hung up on specific species as to where we "draw the line" how about let's not draw a line at all, and understand the value of biodiversity and start to support philosophies, lifestyles, conservationism, policies, and laws that increase it rather than the reverse.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#113    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,798 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:56 AM

Fundamentally its a flawed world view which draws a line between us as humans and everything else. We are inextricably linked and equal in value.
We are not some pinnacle of evolution - we are a small part in a massive tapestry of the expression of DNA on this planet.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#114    Render

Render

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,094 posts
  • Joined:23 Nov 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:14 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Fundamentally its a flawed world view which draws a line between us as humans and everything else. We are inextricably linked and equal in value.
We are not some pinnacle of evolution - we are a small part in a massive tapestry of the expression of DNA on this planet.

Br Cornelius

Then why do you say:

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 March 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Natural extinctions are very different to human induced extinctions. We have a choice to make something extinct.

We're a part of it all aren't we, so why isn't this just the course of things.
Just like previous extinctions were part "of the grande scheme" of things, then why not this scenario.

The definition of nature is also flawed, nature is seen as this fauna flora thing that is and always has to remain the same...otherwise it's not "natural .
What if we could engineer our own nature, and thus further moving away from what earth provides. (im following Slavoj Zizek here a bit i know).

View PostMyles, on 05 March 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

Can we agree that there is not a clean answer to this.   Too much of our answers are opinion.   What defines "overpopulation" as we are using the term?  While I agree with those who say we will find a way to continue with more people, I'd argue that it's not ideal.


We "will" find a way isn't even correct, we've already found our way ... like humanity already has for thousands of years.
Change isn't per definition a bad thing, unless you're older than 70.


#115    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,798 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:57 PM

View PostRender, on 08 March 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Then why do you say:



We're a part of it all aren't we, so why isn't this just the course of things.
Just like previous extinctions were part "of the grande scheme" of things, then why not this scenario.

The definition of nature is also flawed, nature is seen as this fauna flora thing that is and always has to remain the same...otherwise it's not "natural .
What if we could engineer our own nature, and thus further moving away from what earth provides. (im following Slavoj Zizek here a bit i know).



We "will" find a way isn't even correct, we've already found our way ... like humanity already has for thousands of years.
Change isn't per definition a bad thing, unless you're older than 70.
The only way to view your position is to assume that humanity is some self correction mechanism of the planetary system. I don't buy it. We are a plague like any bacteria that eventually kills its host and dies out as a consequence.
The assumption that we have a right to exterminate a whole species because we are part of nature is morally bankrupt and repugnant. Its a form of extreme humanism which will be its own correction.

Ultimately in the grands scheme of things it will not matter as the planet will recover and become as diverse as previously - but I see no reason to pat ourselves on the back for what we are doing to reduce the planetary systems diversity. Cleverness maybe able to postpone the inevitable consequence's of our destructive tendencies - but it will show a profound lack of wisdom in our application of that cleverness.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#116    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 15,248 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:58 PM

View PostRender, on 08 March 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Change isn't per definition a bad thing, unless you're older than 70.
So that's it, isn't it.  It's either good or bad depending on how you see it, and not necessarily because we're restricted to anthropocentric points of view.  Destruction of habitats is change that's bad for whose habitat is destroyed.  Extinction is bad for what goes extinct.   You wouldn't try either one of those on and expect it to fit, you're only concerned about your own habitat and what perceivable changes happen to it.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#117    Render

Render

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,094 posts
  • Joined:23 Nov 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:03 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 March 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

The only way to view your position is to assume that humanity is some self correction mechanism of the planetary system. I don't buy it. We are a plague like any bacteria that eventually kills its host and dies out as a consequence.
The assumption that we have a right to exterminate a whole species because we are part of nature is morally bankrupt and repugnant. Its a form of extreme humanism which will be its own correction.

Ultimately in the grands scheme of things it will not matter as the planet will recover and become as diverse as previously - but I see no reason to pat ourselves on the back for what we are doing to reduce the planetary systems diversity. Cleverness maybe able to postpone the inevitable consequence's of our destructive tendencies - but it will show a profound lack of wisdom in our application of that cleverness.

Br Cornelius

So, do you then agree with the policies that a certain amount of deers, boars, wolves "have to be " shot every year because they could "unbalance" the biodiversity ?


#118    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,798 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:11 PM

View PostRender, on 08 March 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

So, do you then agree with the policies that a certain amount of deers, boars, wolves "have to be " shot every year because they could "unbalance" the biodiversity ?
In the absence of top predictors (because we displaced them) then yes. The need to resort to such activities shows that we have been destroying our environment for a very long time.
This cannot be the precursor to a justification of our right to drive species into extinction - surely not !!

This is the raw fact which all your rosie glasses wide eyed optimism pointedly ignores - the damage is been done and is ongoing and will lead to the eventual loss of probably half the species on the planet unless we fundamentally address the main drivers - of which population is the primary cause.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 08 March 2013 - 01:22 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#119    Bavarian Raven

Bavarian Raven

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,905 posts
  • Joined:14 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:British Columbia

Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:24 PM

Quote

There's a scientific answer to that and it aint 10billion - or even seven.

Most estimates I've read about in uni put it at about 500 - 800 million, one billion tops. And apparently this is a number that needs to be reached in the near future. Does start get one worrying...


#120    bom shankra

bom shankra

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 73 posts
  • Joined:11 Feb 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:aotearoa

  • people say I'm crazy (chapman/lennon)

Posted 08 March 2013 - 08:47 PM

This one is for render et al.  (ghost of christmas future you might say!)  - Passed on to me through 'profile status' by a kind forum member.

Quote

Dinosauria, We (charles bukowski)


Born like this
Into this
As the chalk faces smile
As Mrs. Death laughs
As the elevators break
As political landscapes dissolve
As the supermarket bag boy holds a college degree
As the oily fish spit out their oily prey
As the sun is masked
We are
Born like this
Into this
Into these carefully mad wars
Into the sight of broken factory windows of emptiness
Into bars where people no longer speak to each other
Into fist fights that end as shootings and knifings
Born into this
Into hospitals which are so expensive that it’s cheaper to die
Into lawyers who charge so much it’s cheaper to plead guilty
Into a country where the jails are full and the madhouses closed
Into a place where the masses elevate fools into rich heroes
Born into this
Walking and living through this
Dying because of this
Muted because of this
Castrated
Debauched
Disinherited
Because of this
Fooled by this
Used by this
p***ed on by this
Made crazy and sick by this
Made violent
Made inhuman
By this
The heart is blackened
The fingers reach for the throat
The gun
The knife
The bomb
The fingers reach toward an unresponsive god
The fingers reach for the bottle
The pill
The powder
We are born into this sorrowful deadliness
We are born into a government 60 years in debt
That soon will be unable to even pay the interest on that debt
And the banks will burn
Money will be useless
There will be open and unpunished murder in the streets
It will be guns and roving mobs
Land will be useless
Food will become a diminishing return
Nuclear power will be taken over by the many
Explosions will continually shake the earth
Radiated robot men will stalk each other
The rich and the chosen will watch from space platforms
Dante’s Inferno will be made to look like a children’s playground
The sun will not be seen and it will always be night
Trees will die
All vegetation will die
Radiated men will eat the flesh of radiated men
The sea will be poisoned
The lakes and rivers will vanish
Rain will be the new gold
The rotting bodies of men and animals will stink in the dark wind
The last few survivors will be overtaken by new and hideous diseases
And the space platforms will be destroyed by attrition
The petering out of supplies
The natural effect of general decay
And there will be the most beautiful silence never heard
Born out of that.
The sun still hidden there
Awaiting the next chapter.


Edited by bom shankra, 08 March 2013 - 08:50 PM.

Whats happening here? I can't add URL links on my signature (to legal streeming music sites such as smithsonian folkways radio / adelaide community "3D radio - 5DDD") -  have I been disabled???, I did post a link to a bob dylan video on my 'profile feed' a few weeks ago that might have been dubious, it got deleted, by someone anyway, very sorry guys!!! But why did the legitimate links on my signature also get wiped? - and I say, I seem to be disabled now :td: .




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users