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do you believe the Torah and the Holy Bible


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#16    IamsSon

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 04:27 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 01 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

I believe more some days than others.

The way some put down belief with such force as if it was a kick A thing to do definitely tells me atheists exists.

Well so do believers....whether God exists or not is besides the point since we both do. And those as non-believers who don't believe in God this fact should be more important to you than me: the fact believers exist as much as you do.
So, are you saying knowing that there are people who don't believe God exists and knowing that there are people who believe God does exist is what matters?

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#17    Jessica Christ

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:35 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 01 March 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

So, are you saying knowing that there are people who don't believe God exists and knowing that there are people who believe God does exist is what matters?

When it comes to an interchange between believers and non-believers, yes, that is all that matters to me since I believe that atheists, pagans, and all others have an equal chance to go to heaven just as much as I or you do (and it doesn't matter if they do not believe in heaven what does is the way I treat and approach others).

There are scriptures and my own heart's compass that have led me to this position. There is no need to convince others that they need God, who knows maybe they grew up abused by Christians, I think God will understand if they choose another path, I certainly do!

My whole point though was to be taken from a point of a non-believer, and while Santa and God might not exist to them, it is respectful to not spoil these beliefs for children or Christians respectively, but allow them to hold their beliefs. Some non-believers act that just because God does not exist that they can pretend our faith, our views, and that we ourselves do not exist and thus they say and do cruel things that should not be done to someone you recognize as a person, a being, a fellow human.

But maybe this is a lesson Christians need more than others. Forcing your view, your God, and your Jesus down the throat of others is not recognizing others as persons with their own views and capable of making their own decisions and in turn respecting them.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 01 March 2013 - 08:41 PM.


#18    CRIPTIC CHAMELEON

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:01 PM

No comment.  :sleepy:


#19    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:04 PM

View PostCRIPTIC CHAMELEON, on 01 March 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

No comment.  :sleepy:
Then you could have saved some effort by not bothering to post anything, could you not? :unsure2:

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#20    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:15 PM

Although to be fair, I'm not quite sure what is being asked. The title says
do you believe the Torah and the Holy Bible

were not holy inspired?

but then it goes on to say

View PostRoy Perry, on 26 February 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:


the question is "do you believe in the God of the holy Bible or Torah?

yes or no or maybe

But whichever it is, I think the God of the Bible, or the God of the Old testament at any rate, was a tribal God invented by the tribes of Israel when they were wandering the desert 1000 or more years before the time of Jesus. Now, the Prophets may have been inspired by God, but what they wrote is how they interpreted this inspiration, and this they expressed in ways that were very personal and particular to them. So i really don't think you can get any real, objective idea of the nature of God from them. I think the way in which the Bible might give an insight into what God is and what God is about is through those four, often overlooked books of the New testament known as the Gospels. The ones in which that often overlooked character called Jesus says a few things. So, to answer the question, whatever it actually is, I think I'd say that while parts of the OT may have been divinely inspired, that doesn't neccessarily mean that they tell us the truth about the nature of God, and the God that the older material, the tribal God, I certainly don't believe in as being in any way representative of God.
Thank you.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#21    Jessica Christ

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:44 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 01 March 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Although to be fair, I'm not quite sure what is being asked. The title says
do you believe the Torah and the Holy Bible

were not holy inspired?

but then it goes on to say

But whichever it is, I think the God of the Bible, or the God of the Old testament at any rate, was a tribal God invented by the tribes of Israel when they were wandering the desert 1000 or more years before the time of Jesus. Now, the Prophets may have been inspired by God, but what they wrote is how they interpreted this inspiration, and this they expressed in ways that were very personal and particular to them. So i really don't think you can get any real, objective idea of the nature of God from them. I think the way in which the Bible might give an insight into what God is and what God is about is through those four, often overlooked books of the New testament known as the Gospels. The ones in which that often overlooked character called Jesus says a few things. So, to answer the question, whatever it actually is, I think I'd say that while parts of the OT may have been divinely inspired, that doesn't neccessarily mean that they tell us the truth about the nature of God, and the God that the older material, the tribal God, I certainly don't believe in as being in any way representative of God.
Thank you.

These are indeed cultural narratives, myths to be more specific, and this itself is something special and their success is due to a variety of factors and while it might be time to curb many of the remainin excesses partaken by some adherents there should always be room to allow the moderate faithful to continue without a campaign to destroy their beliefs.


#22    Lion6969

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:13 PM

Dont believe in the current torah or bible. Only originals but they no longer exist!


#23    Hawkin

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:45 PM

Different walks of life believe in a creator of some sort. From organized religions such as Christian, Judaism , Islam, Buddhist and Hindu.
Then there are Indigenous peoples such as Native Americans, Aborigines and African Tribes who each have their god or creator.
All have their own belief system on how they worship.

It's good to have some skepticism so you won't be gullible & naïve. But to much skepticism
can make you narrow minded to all possibilities no matter how unconventional.

#24    IamsSon

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:04 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 01 March 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

When it comes to an interchange between believers and non-believers, yes, that is all that matters to me since I believe that atheists, pagans, and all others have an equal chance to go to heaven just as much as I or you do (and it doesn't matter if they do not believe in heaven what does is the way I treat and approach others).

There are scriptures and my own heart's compass that have led me to this position.
Can you provide the Scriptures, please.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#25    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:02 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 01 March 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

These are indeed cultural narratives, myths to be more specific, and this itself is something special and their success is due to a variety of factors and while it might be time to curb many of the remainin excesses partaken by some adherents there should always be room to allow the moderate faithful to continue without a campaign to destroy their beliefs.
A campaign to destroy their beleifs? Heavens. I didn't know I was campaining for that. Are, though, Deuteronomy and Leviticus really an essential part of anyone's beliefs now, Christian or Jew? Surely they're just obsolete now. Genesis and Exodus are important for the establishing of the background mythology, and the Prophets, but really, it could do with some editing, couldn't it? And what about the vengeful, jealous "no other god but me, dammit!, or I'll Smite the lot of you. In fact, I think i will anyway, just to remind you that I'm not bluffing" god of certain of the older books of the OT. Does that do anything but harm to the perception of religion in general, and Christianity in particular? I'm sure you know how much mileage Dawkins gets out of it. Just recognising that the God of long ago was a different God to the truth, or rather that the way the people of long ago wanted to see God was different, since of course this God was their creation, wouldn't mean destroying anyone's beliefs, as it's nothing to do with the message that Jesus wanted to get across, the whole point of what Jesus taught was that people ought to break away from the slavish following of laws and regulations, so really, insisting that all of the OT should be followed literally goes against his teachings.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#26    Jessica Christ

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 02 March 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Can you provide the Scriptures, please.

That we all have an equal chance even those on other paths? Romans 2:14-16, clearly those without the law have an equal chance.

That there is no need to convince others they need God? Acts 19, the example given to us there is there was no need to talk bad about other deities. While not explicitly stated it is inferred they did not burst into town proclaiming their own God. They had centers and lived and all were welcome to visit their centers and just see how Christians lived in public too. This is all a Christian needs to be a good witness. Harassing others with hell is not a good witness...just some additional thoughts.

Also this is not to convince you or anyone else, this is what convinced me. What is between me and the Spirit is just that between us and not a rule for anyone else but the same applies both ways when it comes to others, their way may not be for all. For example pretending all pagans are hell-bound is not for me, treating them as if they were and they need our God is just not being a good witness, at all.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 02 March 2013 - 03:04 PM.


#27    IamsSon

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:51 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 02 March 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

That we all have an equal chance even those on other paths? Romans 2:14-16, clearly those without the law have an equal chance.
I encourage you to re-read that whole chapter along with chapter 1, because what those verses are actually pointing out is that even those who have not heard of Christ still have the ability to know when they have done something which is wrong.  In order for you to even begin to interpret these verses in the way you have you would have to ignore the rest of the chapter, really the rest of that whole book, not to mention the book of John.

Quote

That there is no need to convince others they need God? Acts 19, the example given to us there is there was no need to talk bad about other deities. While not explicitly stated it is inferred they did not burst into town proclaiming their own God. They had centers and lived and all were welcome to visit their centers and just see how Christians lived in public too. This is all a Christian needs to be a good witness. Harassing others with hell is not a good witness...just some additional thoughts.
I would like to refer you to a few passages in that same book:  Acts 2, Acts 3, and even Acts 19 itself which clearly relate events where the early Christians were loudly and very publicly proclaiming Christ's message.

Having pointed that out, I will tell you that I completely disagree with people who go around accosting people out on the street or parks, because I don't see that being described in the Bible.  Peter and John were preaching in the temple courtyards, talking to people who obviously had an interest in hearing spiritual things, Paul spoke in areas where people went to hear debates and discussions.


Quote

Also this is not to convince you or anyone else, this is what convinced me. What is between me and the Spirit is just that between us and not a rule for anyone else but the same applies both ways when it comes to others, their way may not be for all. For example pretending all pagans are hell-bound is not for me, treating them as if they were and they need our God is just not being a good witness, at all.
So, pretending someone is not going to die from the poison you know they are drinking is a good thing?

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#28    Jessica Christ

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:00 AM

View PostIamsSon, on 03 March 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

I encourage you to re-read that whole chapter along with chapter 1, because what those verses are actually pointing out is that even those who have not heard of Christ still have the ability to know when they have done something which is wrong.  In order for you to even begin to interpret these verses in the way you have you would have to ignore the rest of the chapter, really the rest of that whole book, not to mention the book of John.

I would like to refer you to a few passages in that same book:  Acts 2, Acts 3, and even Acts 19 itself which clearly relate events where the early Christians were loudly and very publicly proclaiming Christ's message.

Having pointed that out, I will tell you that I completely disagree with people who go around accosting people out on the street or parks, because I don't see that being described in the Bible.  Peter and John were preaching in the temple courtyards, talking to people who obviously had an interest in hearing spiritual things, Paul spoke in areas where people went to hear debates and discussions.


So, pretending someone is not going to die from the poison you know they are drinking is a good thing?

I think you know your own limits but cannot begin to define those of others which includes understanding and openeness.

At least you have begun to think about these things but remember I never stated them to convince you and I will accept your view the same: as something for me to think about but not to convince me.

Just keep in mind I used to think exactly like you and have since "grown" but you can of course decide to put another word in place just do not debate that with me because it is your view alone here.


#29    coolguy

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:10 AM

I have read the bible and its supposed to be writen 100 years after Jesus.this is what i questin how do the writers of the bible knew what was said 100 years ago.i know i sound like a moron but thats my question.


#30    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:39 AM

View Postcoolguy, on 03 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

I have read the bible and its supposed to be writen 100 years after Jesus.this is what i questin how do the writers of the bible knew what was said 100 years ago.i know i sound like a moron but thats my question.
I presume you mean the NT? The OT was written hundreds of years before Jesus; thousands, sometimes.There's people who know all about all this, but as was just being discussed in another thread, opinion is that the Gospels, most of them anyway, were probably writen round about 60-80 AD, so that'd be within living memory of eyewitnesses.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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