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Ban to fail students who challenge science


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#16    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:10 PM

View Postaztek, on 26 February 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

it doesn't matter what ppl knew,
SAYING it was not flat was wrong, becouse church said it was flat, thus this is how it is, (kinda reminds me of something today).
just ask Giordano Bruno he knows.
Did they ever have that as dogma? I think what people like him and Copernicus got in trouble for was questioning the earth-centric model of the Solar system.

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#17    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:48 PM

IIRC the Catholic sticking point wasn't the shape of the earth but it's position in the Divine Cosmos.
Church said "centre of the solar system" if you disagreed it was off to the Inquisition with you.


#18    Wickian

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:55 PM

Give them no marks for those specific questions and other work they turn in, and if they still pass then they pass.


#19    FLOMBIE

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:55 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 26 February 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

IIRC the Catholic sticking point wasn't the shape of the earth but it's position in the Divine Cosmos.
Church said "centre of the solar system" if you disagreed it was off to the Inquisition with you.
That's it. It was the heliocentrism vs. geocentrism.


#20    bacca

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:32 PM

Why would this only be in science? Is it ok for students to argue in history that the holocaust or slavery never happened? How about in English and a student says that they don't believe in punctuation, can they be failed? It is fine for students to say that they don't agree with something, but they would need a real reason to do so, something better than 'because x said so'....if a student can do that then fine argue it, but it won't change the right answer on a test....I don't think that differing opinions should be failed just because they are different, but there also needs to be some sort of way to prevent students from creating chaos in the classroom with this law just because they can

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#21    Jeremiah65

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:41 PM

Man made global warming IS a debatable topic.  Climate change is not.  The climate is shifting.  We can argue till the cows come home as to whether it is natural cycle, a solar/celestial cycle or created by burning of fossil fuels...doesn't matter.  The Climate IS shifting.  Sadly the debate roars on and nothing gets discussed on what will be done to deal with the long term ramifications...

Sorry, that is a rant I have had many times...who cares what is causing it?  If you do not prepare for the likelihood that this will be a long term proposition...everyone loses.

As far as man walking with dinosaurs....
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Show me the evidence...and I am not talking about ridiculous footprints in mud...(so stupid)...show me human bones in the same stone and earth strata layers as dinosaur bones...oh...i see...they have never found any...go figure...maybe there is a reason for that.

Expressing one beliefs is all fine and dandy but science AND developing technologies depend on facts...not a "belief".

Just my opinion of course.

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#22    little_dreamer

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:34 PM

What about standardized tests like the SAT and the ACT? Not to mention college-level science at a non-christian school.

How are these students going to get a job at NASA or any place that cares about science, for real?

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#23    Thanato

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:36 AM

View Postaztek, on 26 February 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

it doesn't matter what ppl knew,
SAYING it was not flat was wrong, becouse church said it was flat, thus this is how it is, (kinda reminds me of something today).
just ask Giordano Bruno he knows.

Also most people knew that the world was flat. That's why crossing the Atlantic wasn't done until the very end of the 15th century (with the exception of a small viking colony in Newfoundland).

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#24    MichaelW

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:30 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 26 February 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Ok that bill is an actual good one for education, it so that kids can actually debate subjects instead of just automatically failing.

Yes, because trying to refute decades of archaeological research using tried and tested methods of dating fossils proving that humans didn't even exist during the age of the dinosaurs is actually a step forwards for science.

Really America? When something is inconclusively proven to be true, it cannot be debated. Pure and simple.

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#25    MichaelW

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:31 AM

View Postlittle_dreamer, on 26 February 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

What about standardized tests like the SAT and the ACT? Not to mention college-level science at a non-christian school.

How are these students going to get a job at NASA or any place that cares about science, for real?

They won't. They'll end up being televangelists who rob naive people for money or claim they can cure "the gay".

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#26    Merc14

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:17 AM

View PostTiggs, on 26 February 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

God forbid that science classes should actually teach science, rather than everyone's opinion.



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#27    Jinxdom

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:04 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 27 February 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:



Yes, because trying to refute decades of archaeological research using tried and tested methods of dating fossils proving that humans didn't even exist during the age of the dinosaurs is actually a step forwards for science.

Really America? When something is inconclusively proven to be true, it cannot be debated. Pure and simple.

The article mentions dinosaurs or not the bill itself. Even evolution has parts to it that are extremely mucky. What constitutes as a species is highly debatable. It's cool though making snap judgements on an article that was written to scare people.

What would you rather kids actually learn and understand why what they were taught is wrong or should we just fail them because their parents taught them wrong?

Seriously thees are kids. They do not have decades of information at hand. They have information given to them from their parents. If they kids can't question about what they were taught by their parents vs what they are being taught in school how would they know which is right?

Think of the predicament kids are in when it comes to school. Since schools do the same thing parents do. I am right because I said so. Who would you trust in that situation? Somebody who feeds you, protects you, knew you for all of your life or somebody you known for less then a year and you are forced to go see. Allowing kids to discuss a subject can break the parents teaching. Most good teachers do this already.


#28    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:10 AM

View PostJeremiah65, on 26 February 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

Man made global warming IS a debatable topic.  Climate change is not.  The climate is shifting.  We can argue till the cows come home as to whether it is natural cycle, a solar/celestial cycle or created by burning of fossil fuels...doesn't matter.  The Climate IS shifting.  Sadly the debate roars on and nothing gets discussed on what will be done to deal with the long term ramifications...

Sorry, that is a rant I have had many times...who cares what is causing it?  If you do not prepare for the likelihood that this will be a long term proposition...everyone loses.

Well, exactly. if the massed armies of Experts would devote a bit of their time to considering how people could best adapt to changing climates, (since climates of course always have changed over tiome and always will do), rather than just shouting "Climate change is real and Irreversible,and it's all your fault!! You're destroying Planet Earth!!!!", perhaps the "skeptics" might be more prepared to listen to them. As it is, a,lot of people just tend to dismiss them as just another bunch doom mongers who keep shouting all the time. Really, it's very counterproductive.

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#29    MichaelW

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:32 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 27 February 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

Even evolution has parts to it that are extremely mucky.

However, the notion that humans and dinosaurs existed together has been proven, conclusively, to be false. This is an undeniable fact.

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What constitutes as a species is highly debatable.

For people that don't know what a species is, that is.

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What would you rather kids actually learn and understand why what they were taught is wrong or should we just fail them because their parents taught them wrong?

I was under the impression that the US was a secular state and thus public schools (or whatever the US equivalents are). If these students (or their parents) wanted them to have religious teachings, send them to a religious school. That's what they are there for.

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They do not have decades of information at hand.

Then they are pretty ****ty schools then if they do not teach information based on decades of research and evidence, or cannot access materials that have such information be it in electronic form or the humble book.

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If they kids can't question about what they were taught by their parents vs what they are being taught in school how would they know which is right?

Do you honestly think that what a child learns about the world other than right and wrong is better than what they are taught at school? What if the parents told them that 2+2=6? Would that be considered right just because their parents said so?

Quote

Allowing kids to discuss a subject can break the parents teaching. Most good teachers do this already.

Science and maths is different to that of social studies. The latter is best for open discussions because nothing is set in concrete.

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#30    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:15 AM

Of course, Science, as Scientists would be the first to admit, (or should, unless, like Dawkins, they've become so wrapped up in the worship of Science that they see it as a religion)  can only really say what hasn't been disproven at that stage. They can never state categorically that something is true or these are the defnitive rules and these will never change; it's always 'this is the state of the art right now, but we might discover something that could cause us to change what we believe at some point in the future'. Therefore, stating scientific Facts is not actually scientific.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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