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Japan will never stop whaling, minister says


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#106    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:11 PM

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You're not listening to what's already been discussed.   Pigs aren't comparable to whales since pigs are farmed.   There are two billion pigs in the world on farms at a time to meet global demand for pork.   If killing a pig is equivalent to killing a whale, then there will be two billion whales raised in farms for our consumption.

So what you are saying is one animals life is worth more then another animals life, just because of it's species. Hmm... :td:

~

Now all this being said, I agree whaling should be curtailed and eventually ceased. And I agree that more needs to be done to reach this goal. But that being said, the Sea Shepard is nothing more then a pirate vessel. Those aboard should be arrested and charged with piracy the moment they enter US or any other country's waters. If you or I were to go out and do what they do to another ship, we'd be arrested.

Edited by Bavarian Raven, 04 March 2013 - 03:14 PM.


#107    MichaelW

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:02 PM

View PostYamato, on 04 March 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

You're not listening to what's already been discussed.
  

I am keeping up with the discussion, even when various members shift the goalposts. His suggestion was that there were moral questions around the killing of sentient beings, including whales. My post was about asking Frank whether or not he supported the farming and killing of pigs, both domesticated and wild, because of what he said.  

Quote

Pigs aren't comparable to whales since pigs are farmed.   There are two billion pigs in the world on farms at a time to meet global demand for pork.   If killing a pig is equivalent to killing a whale, then there will be two billion whales raised in farms for our consumption.

I'm not trying to suggest they are, but if you read my reply to Frank in context (which is clearly what you are incapable of doing).

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The evidence that you're looking for is the proof that you're seeing.

Is it now? So Japan going home with whales being diced and sliced aboard their factory vessels is "a success"? For the Japanese perhaps.

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I'm not sure having a 100% market share is necessary to be deemed a success in the for-profit world so there's no need for such a double standard here just because the name of the game is saving lives.

The game is piracy. Anyone with a brain can tell you this.

Quote

Now either the Japanese whalers are liars as well as cowards, or I'm right.

They aren't liars and cowards and you're not right. They probably had orders from higher up to go back to Japan to avoid another fiasco like the one from a couple of years ago, that "mighty defeat" you keep parroting about to deaf ears. You know, the one where Pete Bethune was taken back to Japan and tried?

Have you heard of "public relations"? The Japanese want to keep their image reasonably untainted this year. *snip*

Edited by Paranoid Android, 05 March 2013 - 06:33 AM.
offensive remark removed

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#108    Sakari

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:27 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 04 March 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

Now, I will admit when I am wrong if someone actually points it out for me. Until then, you may continue to fling feces.



Quote



The History and Future of Whales



Posted Image
Posted Image
Location:
UT Campus, Welch Hall 2.224
Schedule:
5:45-7pm: Pre-lecture Fun
7-8:15pm: Lecture
Directions:
Welch is located on the corner of 24th Street and Speedway. Building & Parking Maps
Posted Image Dr. Stephen R. Palumbi introduces himself and talks briefly about ocean management, whale survival, and his research on whales.
Play video
by Dr. Stephen R. Palumbi
Professor of Biological Sciences,
Stanford University's Hopkins Marine Station



Scientists use new technologies to reveal untold mysteries about whales and provide information on whale history that may be crucial to their survival in the future. Dr. Stephen Palumbi, a renowned marine biologist and professor at Stanford, will discuss how he uses genetic techniques to estimate historic whale populations and how his findings play an important role in decisions of the International Whaling Commission (IWC). He recently published in the journal Science that DNA evidence indicates that before commercial whaling began, whale populations were 10 times larger than scientists previously believed. The IWC guidelines state that there can be no whaling until populations have returned to at least 54% of their historic levels, but their estimates are based on unreliable whaling records kept by ships and dating back to the mid 19th century. According to these previous estimates, many whale populations have nearly recovered to the required 54% of their historic levels, but the new genetic analysis suggests it will take at least another 50 -100 years

http://www.esi.utexa...uture-of-whales

.







Throwing facts......



Edit :

I just noticed you are 19.....This explains a lot about your replies.( sarcastic, rude, ignorant ) No offense, but get some years under your belt, or show some facts. A 19 year olds opinion means little to me on many topics.

With age comes wisdom.




..

Edited by Sakari, 05 March 2013 - 02:41 AM.

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#109    Myles

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:44 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 04 March 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

So what you are saying is one animals life is worth more then another animals life, just because of it's species. Hmm... :td:

I agree with him.   Not that it is or should be defined as such, but it's a persons' opinion.
I consider the life of a whale is worth more than that of a mouse.  But, like I said, I understand it is just my opinion.


#110    watoom

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:52 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 28 February 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Honestly, I find it quite amusing that some members are on some sort of moral crusade here supporting a group who have committed acts of piracy on the open seas and is run by a massive egomaniac.

Sea Shepard are a joke. They are an embarrassment to the environmentalist and conservation movement and should be treated accordingly.

Got any evidence of said piracy to back up your claims?


#111    MichaelW

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:19 AM

View PostSakari, on 05 March 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

I just noticed you are 19.....This explains a lot about your replies.( sarcastic, rude, ignorant ) No offense, but get some years under your belt, or show some facts. A 19 year olds opinion means little to me on many topics.

If my opinion doesn't matter to you, don't reply to me then. Simple.

However I am amused that you think my age has anything to do with this. I've had the chance to encounter people twice my age with the intelligence of a five year old. *snip*. And we all know that age is no substitute for intelligence.

Quote

With age comes wisdom.

Clearly.

Although I do like it that you think that age brings wisdom. Certainly, SS could do with some of that so hopefully they'd stop acting like media whores and do something constructive. I'm sure you have plenty of this to share around.


View Postwatoom, on 05 March 2013 - 02:52 AM, said:

Got any evidence of said piracy to back up your claims?

Pete Bethune's actions would be classified as acts of piracy. His attempted arrest of the captain of the Japanese vessel that sunk his ship was an unlawful boarding and an attempt at detention.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 05 March 2013 - 06:21 AM.
Removed personal jibe

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#112    Sakari

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:29 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 05 March 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

If my opinion doesn't matter to you, don't reply to me then. Simple.

However I am amused that you think my age has anything to do with this. I've had the chance to encounter people twice my age with the intelligence of a five year old. *snip* And we all know that age is no substitute for intelligence.



Clearly.

Although I do like it that you think that age brings wisdom. Certainly, SS could do with some of that so hopefully they'd stop acting like media whores and do something constructive. I'm sure you have plenty of this to share around.




Pete Bethune's actions would be classified as acts of piracy. His attempted arrest of the captain of the Japanese vessel that sunk his ship was an unlawful boarding and an attempt at detention.


You ignored the fact I posted.

And as I said, I meant no offense on saying you were 19. I was ( as I said ) talking about your maturity level with replies. Almost all of them have name calling, or are very rude and sarcastic.

That was the ONLY reason.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 05 March 2013 - 06:22 AM.
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#113    Yamato

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:00 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 04 March 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

I am keeping up with the discussion, even when various members shift the goalposts. His suggestion was that there were moral questions around the killing of sentient beings, including whales. My post was about asking Frank whether or not he supported the farming and killing of pigs, both domesticated and wild, because of what he said.  



I'm not trying to suggest they are, but if you read my reply to Frank in context (which is clearly what you are incapable of doing).



Is it now? So Japan going home with whales being diced and sliced aboard their factory vessels is "a success"? For the Japanese perhaps.



The game is piracy. Anyone with a brain can tell you this.



They aren't liars and cowards and you're not right. They probably had orders from higher up to go back to Japan to avoid another fiasco like the one from a couple of years ago, that "mighty defeat" you keep parroting about to deaf ears. You know, the one where Pete Bethune was taken back to Japan and tried?

Have you heard of "public relations"? The Japanese want to keep their image reasonably untainted this year. *snip*
"Anyone with a brain" style arguments aren't convincing to anyone.  If you mean to insult and never convince anyone of anything, that kind of immaturity will do it.  

I'm not answering to Frank or what Frank says.  I've already discussed pigs with you, and you're discussing them with Frank as if you aren't keeping up with the differences already discussed.

If the whalers aren't lying then Sea Shepherd drove their poachers out of the Southern Ocean weeks early like they said.  

Pete Bethune was a cowboy from New Zealand who got his way to board that ship and get taken back to one place or the other.   He knew they might take him back to Japan and they did.  If he was a "pirate", or a terrorist, he wouldn't be a free man living with his wife and family in New Zealand.   Governments just murder pirates off the horn of Africa.  Tell the Japanese Navy to send a frigate and open fire on the "pirates" and we'll see how they try that one on in court, the crooks.   That might be the key to ending whaling, strange as many events go.

Success (and profit) for Sea Shepherd is measured in saving lives, not making dollars.   There is failure in not shutting the illegal Japanese poaching fleet down entirely, the failure of poached whales of course.  So the battle must wage on, with greater power and success every year to come.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 05 March 2013 - 06:34 AM.
edited quote

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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#114    Myles

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:50 PM

View PostMichaelW, on 05 March 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:



Although I do like it that you think that age brings wisdom. Certainly, SS could do with some of that so hopefully they'd stop acting like media whores and do something constructive. I'm sure you have plenty of this to share around.




How is it that you cannot understand that being "media whores" is incredibly beneficial to their cause?   Why would they not keep it up.


#115    Yamato

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:09 PM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 04 March 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

So what you are saying is one animals life is worth more then another animals life, just because of it's species. Hmm... :td:

~

Now all this being said, I agree whaling should be curtailed and eventually ceased. And I agree that more needs to be done to reach this goal. But that being said, the Sea Shepard is nothing more then a pirate vessel. Those aboard should be arrested and charged with piracy the moment they enter US or any other country's waters. If you or I were to go out and do what they do to another ship, we'd be arrested.
Because it can't be farmed.  If that's because of "the species" which is very vague language, then yes exactly.

If Japanese whalers land on Australian shores, they'll probably be arrested.   It's just a matter of what laws are the most important to you.  It's a choice between saving our dying ecosystems and how soon some Japanese person has to wait to put more whale meat into his mouth.   The choice is clear:   Defend our oceans!

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#116    coolguy

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:08 AM

Very sad lets hope all there whaling ships sink.


#117    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:20 AM

I read comments about the age of posters.  I have to say that in my view age does not bring wisdom, but it does bring experience.  Whether or not wisdom comes from experience depends on the person.  Sometimes it only brings ossification.

To my mind, from what we know about whales, I think their killing verges on criminal.  Now we don't like the killing of any animal, and yet eat meat, so are we hypocrites?

I don't think so, and if you've dealt with cows you may understand why.  They verge on vegetableness -- at least domestic cattle.  So long as they are treated well and killed humanely, the moral offense of eating meat is not great.  The main reason I support avoiding beef is because of the methane they produce that adds to global warming.  

Whales are a very different story in terms of intelligence, and it is impossible to kill them humanely.


#118    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:10 AM

View PostSakari, on 05 March 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

With age comes wisdom.
Or as in my case, cynicism and sarcasm.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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#119    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:02 PM

Quote

Because it can't be farmed.  If that's because of "the species" which is very vague language, then yes exactly.
If Japanese whalers land on Australian shores, they'll probably be arrested.   It's just a matter of what laws are the most important to you.  It's a choice between saving our dying ecosystems and how soon some Japanese person has to wait to put more whale meat into his mouth.   The choice is clear:   Defend our oceans!

This is where I will have to respectfully disagree with you. Unless one is a vegan and does not wear or eat any animal products (no leather shoes, leather car seats, etc), they do not have the right to complain about one person eating a certain species of animal over another.

About the law issue, as of right now, its technically not illegal what the whalers are doing (even if they are using loopholes, etc to get around the laws - it is not illegal). However, what the S-S is doing is illegal... attacking another ship is a crime. Simple as that.

And the cynically (this is mostly sarcasm, this last comment) part of me wants to say maybe we need another major die-off. Every time they've happened in the past, life then flourishes anew in newer, seemingly more interesting forms. :whistle:


#120    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:10 PM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 06 March 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

This is where I will have to respectfully disagree with you. Unless one is a vegan and does not wear or eat any animal products (no leather shoes, leather car seats, etc), they do not have the right to complain about one person eating a certain species of animal over another.
Well then I guess I respectfully disagree with you.  We are all animals, so drawing a distinction based on rational criteria such as danger of extinction, humanity of killing methods, or the intelligence of the animal, is sensible and appropriate.

Quote

And the cynically (this is mostly sarcasm, this last comment) part of me wants to say maybe we need another major die-off. Every time they've happened in the past, life then flourishes anew in newer, seemingly more interesting forms. :whistle:
I hope it is entirely sarcasm.  Consider the lives that would be cut short.





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