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Troubling Doctrines For Christians


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#166    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:38 PM

My office break is over.

(Christian) Gnosticism also has the Holy Spirit, Christ(os), Jesus, LOVE...and God.

#167    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:48 PM

View PostSherapy, on 25 March 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Exactly, unconditional love never says you cannot disagree with your child, it says you may disagree, but you will love them regardless.
Again, your definition of unconditional love is flawed. The father and son situation is merely a reality of our society, our social condition. Unfortunately, it has become the norm to just reject or dismiss those who don't fit the plan or lifestyle. Peace.

(Christian) Gnosticism also has the Holy Spirit, Christ(os), Jesus, LOVE...and God.

#168    Sherapy

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:52 PM

View Postbraveone2u, on 25 March 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Hi Sherapy,

Why is the son living on the street (and this is the time when he needs help most of all)?

"...yet he continues to love his son": sound like a lip-service to me.

Peace.

I do not know why the son has chosen to be homeless, chose to forfeit his benefits, steal from his father as opposed to using the opportunity of human goodness to better himself, only the son can answer this. Sometimes kids will only hear the reality(truth) of their own experiences.

Edited by Sherapy, 25 March 2013 - 11:54 PM.




#169    Sherapy

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:58 PM

View Postbraveone2u, on 25 March 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Again, your definition of unconditional love is flawed. The father and son situation is merely a reality of our society, our social condition. Unfortunately, it has become the norm to just reject or dismiss those who don't fit the plan or lifestyle. Peace.

The son has not been rejected, his father continues to love him, his father simply doesn't continue to enable him to steal from him.

Edited by Sherapy, 25 March 2013 - 11:59 PM.




#170    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:00 AM

View PostSherapy, on 25 March 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

i do not know why the son has chosen to be homeless, chose to forfeit his benefits, he is the only one that can answer that. Sometimes kids will only hear their own experiences.
There are situations like that, I agree with you. The father, however, kept his distance, and he still has a choice to really go out of his way to help his son...but I can only go by my experience. There's so much to say, and in the end, what is the father doing about it now? The son is out there. I hope he doesn't end up like the mentally handicapped guy in Fullerton who got bitten up...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Sherapy.

Peace.

(Christian) Gnosticism also has the Holy Spirit, Christ(os), Jesus, LOVE...and God.

#171    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:26 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 25 March 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

Regarding the current discussion on "unconditional love", I'd like to enter into the argument a real life example of someone I know.  He's a casual friend I know from down the local pub.  I meet him every now and then when I play poker there on Fridays.  I'll usually have a quick beer with him and just chat.  Recently (a week ago), he shared with me about his son.  I've known about the problems he and his son have had for some time.  His son is a bit of a lazy bugger, and by that I mean he has no job, no desire to get a job, no desire to even pretend to look for one.  As such, he has been cut off from government subsidised assistance because he doesn't even pretend.  He's living on the street, unless he can find someone to lend a bedroom.  His father used to allow him to stay at his house, but one too many times he'd wake up with his son gone and all his money stolen.  He's losing people who are willing to give him a bed for the night because they wake up also and inevitably find something missing from their house also.

So back to the father.  We were having a talk last week and he admitted this to me, and I remember it word-for-word (minus the replacement of my real name with my online persona).  He said - "PA, I love my son, I really do.  But I just don't like him very much.  Can you understand that"?

Despite all the bad that his son has done, he still loves him.  As a father he always will love him.  That is the very essence of unconditional love, that despite everything else that happens, he will always be loved.  But he doesn't like him very much.  I submit to this discussion that when we think of God and "unconditional love", it should NOT be a case that God will simply give us everything regardless of how we act or behave.  The view that a God of unconditional love would not ever consider sending us to hell is wrong.  It is flawed, based on an unrealistic definition of "unconditional love".  Of course, as anyone who knows me will attest, I don't believe this hell is eternal torture, so in this context I think it quite a valid point to suggest that just because God loves each and every one of us that he would therefore ignore our actions just because we think he should.

Just thought I'd share :)

~ Regards,

The above message is worth reading again. It's a great post, and it shows that like and love aren't always the same things. It's safe to say that there are times when our loved ones don't like us. There are times when we don't like them, either.

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#172    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:46 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 26 March 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

...it shows that like and love aren't always the same things.
Exactly. There is always an element of doubt in (human) love. The "unconditional love" presence of the divine is unmistakably crystal clear and ever-flowing; there is nothing like it. We tend to forget that to be a functioning human being has many duties and responsibilities, regardless of love. Peace.

Edited by braveone2u, 26 March 2013 - 02:58 AM.

(Christian) Gnosticism also has the Holy Spirit, Christ(os), Jesus, LOVE...and God.

#173    Paranoid Android

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:41 AM

View Postbraveone2u, on 25 March 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

Thank you for sharing, PA, but it's a flawed version of "unconditional love" because it's not ever-flowing. "Unconditional love" is a state of being (of the divine), not action nor emotion, which nourishes one's "hunger" and "thirst."

"But whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."  John 4:14

You also omitted the conversation between the father and the son because I'm sure the father was brutally honest with him about his laziness. (I, for one, think the son has a bipolar condition.) Even though the father didn't send him to "hell," the fact remains that the kid was crying out for help and yet the father kicked him out because he was always getting robbed... Nourishing?? Eternal life affirming?? Closure??

"And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well."  Matthew 5:40


"Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it his not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away."  1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Peace.
There comes a moment when you have to say to someone "for your own good, I cannot enable you any longer".  You mistake unconditional love with being a door mat.  Yes, the father withdrew his support.  But it's not like he didn't try (and I know he tried), but if he kept on allowing his son to stay at his house, then he's just enabling his behaviour, giving his son absolutely no reason to change.

Your opinion on his medical state is noted, I've met the son a few times and I've never noticed bipolar traits, though bipolar disorder can exist for long times in a state of apparent dormancy.

You have a very different definition of "love" than what I do.  You quote 1 Corinthians 13, which I agree with, but you've interpreted very differently to how I would have done so.


View Postbraveone2u, on 25 March 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Hi Sherapy,

Why is the son living on the street (and this is the time when he needs help most of all)?

"...yet he continues to love his son": sound like a lip-service to me.

Peace.
As both Sherapy and IamsSon have pointed out, to continue to enable his son is not in his best interest.  It's funny now that some people who are normally on opposite sides of arguments both agree on this point.


View Postbraveone2u, on 26 March 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

Exactly. There is always an element of doubt in (human) love. The "unconditional love" presence of the divine is unmistakably crystal clear and ever-flowing; there is nothing like it. We tend to forget that to be a functioning human being has many duties and responsibilities, regardless of love. Peace.
"There is always an element of doubt in (human) love".  Curious interpretation of the post, that's not how I would have rephrased his words.  His comment had nothing to do with doubt.  Not that I could see, at least.  It's just pointing out that not liking a person's actions does not mean they are not loved.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 26 March 2013 - 03:49 AM.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#174    Paranoid Android

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:43 AM

View PostSherapy, on 25 March 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

Braveone2U,

What you are suggesting is being a door mat, or the encouragement of one to not having boundaries. Unconditional love reminds us who we are-- it holds up a mirror of our best selves it doesn't encourage us to harm ourselves or others, it tells us what we need to hear not what we want to hear.  In Pa's story (as a mother myself of 24 years)  he has done a great job of illustrating the concept of unconditional love in practical terms.  The father has let his son go and be who he needs to be even though it is not his best self. Part of loving ourselves includes being self sufficient and doing things that cause no harm to ourselves or others, not unlike the story of the prodigal son. What remains is his love for his son and a place for him when he works things out for himself, this is indeed unconditional love. Unless you are a parent it can be difficult to understand how the father is allowing his son to learn through his own experiences,(even though it is not what he would choose for his son) it is in this his son will learn the quickest. Again this is unconditional love.
Exactly.  If the son wishes to change, I know this guy well enough to know he'll be there to support him through it.  But at this stage in his life, this is the best thing, as tough as it may be.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#175    Sherapy

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:45 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 26 March 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Exactly.  If the son wishes to change, I know this guy well enough to know he'll be there to support him through it.  But at this stage in his life, this is the best thing, as tough as it may be.

Indeed PA, it as you said It is love without judgement, the love is for his son not what he has done or said.


My heart goes out to the dad and his son, it is sad. there are times in our lives where we are called upon to let people go be who they need to be-- even when we know it is not good for them--even when we know they are making a mistake. This son was not hearing his father and things like this do not get better by enabling kids, they only encourage the kid to continue to harm themselves and others.

My cousin recently went through this with his son, and his son got upset with him he didn't like the rules and he moved out and was homeless for a few days. He went home with a new attitude and respect for his dad (he has since joined the army.) I asked my cousin what made him change and my cousin said he asked his son the same thing and his son said "you did dad, when I was homeless I saw that what you were trying to tell me was for my own good." These two now are closer then ever. I can tell you my cousin loves his son more then life itself, and he cried his eyes out when his boy left, but he had to let him learn for himself.

Edited by Sherapy, 26 March 2013 - 04:51 AM.




#176    Sherapy

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:46 AM

View Postbraveone2u, on 26 March 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

There are situations like that, I agree with you. The father, however, kept his distance, and he still has a choice to really go out of his way to help his son...but I can only go by my experience. There's so much to say, and in the end, what is the father doing about it now? The son is out there. I hope he doesn't end up like the mentally handicapped guy in Fullerton who got bitten up...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Sherapy.

Peace.

I understand  your concerns, my heart goes out to his family, perhaps you could pray he will find his way back to his dad.

Thank you  for sharing your thoughts also Brave2you. All the best.

Edited by Sherapy, 26 March 2013 - 04:50 AM.




#177    Sherapy

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:52 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 26 March 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Exactly.  If the son wishes to change, I know this guy well enough to know he'll be there to support him through it.  But at this stage in his life, this is the best thing, as tough as it may be.

Let us hope for this in this situation.




#178    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:24 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 26 March 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

There comes a moment when you have to say to someone "for your own good, I cannot enable you any longer".  You mistake unconditional love with being a door mat.  Yes, the father withdrew his support.  But it's not like he didn't try (and I know he tried), but if he kept on allowing his son to stay at his house, then he's just enabling his behaviour, giving his son absolutely no reason to change.

Your opinion on his medical state is noted, I've met the son a few times and I've never noticed bipolar traits, though bipolar disorder can exist for long times in a state of apparent dormancy.

You have a very different definition of "love" than what I do.  You quote 1 Corinthians 13, which I agree with, but you've interpreted very differently to how I would have done so.

"There is always an element of doubt in (human) love".  Curious interpretation of the post, that's not how I would have rephrased his words.  His comment had nothing to do with doubt.  Not that I could see, at least.  It's just pointing out that not liking a person's actions does not mean they are not loved.
Hi PA,

Would I be able to live with myself knowing that there's a way to help the person I REALLY love? That has always been the bottom line for me. We all handle certain situations differently -- that's a given, and I certainly know that too well. I'm sharing with you what I would do, and even though the situations I have come to accept and soldiered on were not the same as the father/son situation, I can only say that I have no regrets. Regret is such a sad state and leaves a sour note in one's consciousness, heart. Unfortunately, regret is a reality in itself, just as much as triumph, catharsis, redemption, and so on. It's only revealed after the climactic ending. In the end, it's your friend's call.

That's really what I'm trying to get across to you.

Human love to be deepened is never a pleasant thing. "Doormat" is really a false analogy when it comes to love being "deepened" (since I detest the word "tested"), but ultimately, it's inevitable to find that out, especially if one's inclination is the spiritual life.


Peace to you, always.

Edited by braveone2u, 26 March 2013 - 06:25 AM.

(Christian) Gnosticism also has the Holy Spirit, Christ(os), Jesus, LOVE...and God.

#179    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:33 AM

View PostSherapy, on 26 March 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

I understand  your concerns, my heart goes out to his family, perhaps you could pray he will find his way back to his dad.

Thank you  for sharing your thoughts also Brave2you. All the best.
You have a very sweet disposition, Sherapy. Yes, I did pray for a good outcome the moment I finished reading PA's post. God bless.

(Christian) Gnosticism also has the Holy Spirit, Christ(os), Jesus, LOVE...and God.

#180    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:47 AM

I think children who are disciplined -- physically or emotionally through scolding or deprivations -- can become rebellious and hateful, and end up stealing from their parents and running away and even fighting back (certainly talking back).

This is not natural.  The natural desire of a child is to please its parents.  The natural desire of parents is to love their children.

How is it then that most families are so messed up, and all are a little messed up?  Reading some of the above messages has reminded me of how disfunctional so many families end up being.

A child who is rewarded with love and other more tangible ways (they are children after all) but not punished -- who is often reminded that they are loved and that the parents are proud of them -- does not need to be punished more than a frown or a "please do not do that."  I know many parents find this hard to believe, but it is true.  Where parents find they have to use real discipline they have already failed -- they have already planted the seeds of rebellion through impatience or through working out their own problems on their children.





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