47 replies to this topic

[Queen in the North]

Kind of on topic...

Did anyone (in the UK, I guess) watch any of Black Mirror on C4? "White Bear Justice Park" clearly wasn't a perfect prison...

[spud the mackem]

Eldorado, on 02 March 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

We'd also need perfect Prison Officers to run our perfect prison.  Where would we find those?  As I'm sure we all know, when you give people power over others they don't always behave as you'd expect.

Here's an example, from a hospital no less....
What happened at Stafford Hospital?
Data shows there were between 400 and 1,200 more deaths than would have been expected.
It is impossible to say all of these patients would have survived if they had received better treatment.  But it is clear many were let down by a culture that put cost-cutting and target-chasing ahead of the quality of care.

Examples included patients being so thirsty that they had to drink water from vases and receptionists left to decide which patients to treat in A&E.

Nurses were not trained properly to use vital equipment, while inexperienced doctors were put in charge of critically ill patients.

Some patients needing pain relief either got it late or not at all, leaving them crying out for help, and there were cases where food and drinks were left out of reach.
The failings have led to scores of legal challenges from the families of patients.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...health-21275826

Hi El'D, getting back to Prisons, Officers have a very difficult job, as prisoners don't always behave themselves,and Officers can be assaulted, but if they retaliate,they have to face a Board of Enquiry, with the Prisoners shouting "Human Rights" when they are restrained.I had 2 cousins who were Officers,and they often ended up on the sick list thru assault,if hard case Prisoners are treated civilly, Officers are considered "a soft touch" and  then Prisoners try to take advantage of this.Some Prisons are required to have 2/3 Officers on duty in any given situation,for obvious reasons.The food hall seems to be the favourite place for assaults to happen,between Prisoners, or against Officers,even a plastic knife or fork can be a dangerous weapon.Its a thankless job and the Officers are always short staffed,thru Gov't cuts.Our Prisons are too soft by far compared with other Countries, and our Legal system, run by the Brussels do-gooders is total crap.Let the punishment fit the Crime, 25 yrs with time off for good behaviour for killing someone is pathetic.cheers.

[bLu3 de 3n3rgy]

Prison is supposed to protect society from the most dangerous and harmful people, therefore I think it should be like this -

Three distinct groups consisting of -

Group 1 - Violent offenders including, murders, rapists.
Group 2 - non violent offenders
Group 3 - druggies, alcoholics, mentally ill.

Group 1 - should be housed in the most secure prisons and those who have committed serial murder or rape should never be released ever. They lost their right to be in society by destroying life and that should be upheld.

Group 2 - should be housed in an educational boarding style house where they have the opportunity to either study something or go into a work scheme, learn a trade, where they do the jobs no one else wants to in society.

Group 3 - Should be housed into proper rehabilitation centres that are focused on getting them clean, then once clean this group can graduate to group 2.

[Queen in the North]

bLu3 de 3n3rgy, on 02 March 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

Prison is supposed to protect society from the most dangerous and harmful people, therefore I think it should be like this -

Three distinct groups consisting of -

Group 1 - Violent offenders including, murders, rapists.
Group 2 - non violent offenders
Group 3 - druggies, alcoholics, mentally ill.

Group 1 - should be housed in the most secure prisons and those who have committed serial murder or rape should never be released ever. They lost their right to be in society by destroying life and that should be upheld.

Group 2 - should be housed in an educational boarding style house where they have the opportunity to either study something or go into a work scheme, learn a trade, where they do the jobs no one else wants to in society.

Group 3 - Should be housed into proper rehabilitation centres that are focused on getting them clean, then once clean this group can graduate to group 2.

I agree, though I'd change one thing.

Group 3
i - drug addicts and alcoholics
ii - the mentally ill

Drug addicts and alcoholics can get clean and hopefully eventually get back to normal life, with the mentally ill it's not about them being clean, it's their own minds which are the problem. They should be in secure facilities, also with the aim of rehabilitation, but some of them will likely never be fit for group 2.

[Seeker79]

Frank Merton, on 02 March 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

I said it may be a necessary evil, but we have to keep in mind that it is an evil to take away someone's freedom.

Unless freedom and rights are inherent privileges that you have to honer to receive. criminals almost always do not honer others. to live under the social contract, one must honer it. If no one honers the social contract there is NO society.

[ali smack]

bLu3 de 3n3rgy, on 02 March 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

Prison is supposed to protect society from the most dangerous and harmful people, therefore I think it should be like this -

Three distinct groups consisting of -

Group 1 - Violent offenders including, murders, rapists.
Group 2 - non violent offenders
Group 3 - druggies, alcoholics, mentally ill.

Group 1 - should be housed in the most secure prisons and those who have committed serial murder or rape should never be released ever. They lost their right to be in society by destroying life and that should be upheld.

Group 2 - should be housed in an educational boarding style house where they have the opportunity to either study something or go into a work scheme, learn a trade, where they do the jobs no one else wants to in society.

Group 3 - Should be housed into proper rehabilitation centres that are focused on getting them clean, then once clean this group can graduate to group 2.

Well said.
Totally agree with you

[Kazahel]

Frank Merton, on 02 March 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

I think the idea of imprisoning someone will someday be viewed as being as barbaric as we now view torture or slavery.  In fact, it is a form of both.

I agree.

For now I understand why we have them but I think we need to focus more on preventing people going there in the first place. So trying to break the cycle. For example if someone is violent it might be because they had a violent/abusive upbringing. If someone is stealing it might be because they have grown up in poverty, etc. So I think the perfect prison is not needing one in the first place.

But if we were to have one, I would say it should have large open areas made up of urban, wildlands and even marine enviroments. All the different foods and drinks anyone could ever come up with. Hobbies and jobs to keep people entertained and to allow the feelings of accomplishment and progress. They should also be allowed to interact with others as they choose and have the chance to form close knit groups inorder to learn about each other more deeply. Something like that.

Edited by Kazahel, 03 March 2013 - 01:14 AM.

[Seeker79]

Kazahel, on 03 March 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

I agree.

For now I understand why we have them but I think we need to focus more on preventing people going there in the first place. So trying to break the cycle. For example if someone is violent it might be because they had a violent/abusive upbringing. If someone is stealing it might be because they have grown up in poverty, etc. So I think the perfect prison is not needing one in the first place.

But if we were to have one, I would say it should have large open areas made up of urban, wildlands and even marine enviroments. All the different foods and drinks anyone could ever come up with. Hobbies and jobs to keep people entertained and to allow the feelings of accomplishment and progress. They should also be allowed to interact with others as they choose and have the chance to form close knit groups inorder to learn about each other more deeply. Something like that.

Really kaz.... While I agree with the first part... The second is completely ignoring sociopathic and narcissist tendencys that are not at all born of neglect. These are some very well brought up and exposed to kind people that are still monsters. To allow them to torture, kill, and rule each other in some isolated environment would be much worse than an institutionalized system. ( go watch "the one". I think a mixture of the two ideas. The animals of us all only understand cause and effect. You train a sociopath the same way you do a wild animal. The smart one will get along though to the detriment of society in legal ways, the wild one is always put down or isolated. the rare few convince normal people to behave in their lead. Prevention can go a very long way but it has to be multifaceted, and as good as we get there will always be a need for prisons at least until we train the animals of us to respond to the right pressures. Even then some of them will still bite. What do we do with the pitbull that will not respond?

Edited by Seeker79, 03 March 2013 - 02:59 AM.

[Sundew]

The fact is there will always be members of any society who prey upon others, robbing, raping, killing and so forth. Murderers, if they can be proven to guilty either with multiple witnesses, DNA evidence or other means should be executed or incarcerated for life. The recidivism rate of certain crimes (especially child molestation) is so high that it makes little sense to return this type of offender to society. We have a right to protect the innocent among us as a population. A shepherd does not allow a pack of wolves to live among his sheep and neither should law abiding citizens be forced to live in fear of their lives and property because jail is "cruel"; the actions of criminals can be just as cruel and more so. I don't subscribe to a bleeding heart mentality here. The next time you read about a heinous crime replace the name of the victim with the name of your wife, husband, sister, brother, mother, father or best friend, then realize that these victims have one of more of these categories of people deeply affected by these crimes.

For petty crimes, fines should be used for deterrents. It makes little since to put someone in jail long term (or in some cases even short term) for things like small amounts of marijuana or the like. If society deems that to be wrong, then a fine and some anti-drug course would be a smarter alternative. Education should trump incarceration for non-violent, "victimless" crimes and the fines should help pay for the education.

Jail if used however should not be "fun", that is, there should be work of some sort that the convicts earn a small salary for, there should be no TV, weight rooms, etcetera. If we put men into prison to give them rippling muscles, to hone new and greater ways of committing crime, to join gangs, to be used and abused by other inmates, we are not stopping crime, we are enhancing it. There should be courses (high school or college level) available in the event that a prisoner does indeed reform, because the object of placing them back into society should be that it benefits society and help the inmate to fit in with that society. There should be religious services available but not mandatory. There should also, in my opinion be reparations towards those harmed by the actions of the criminals, where possible. This is to show that there is a cost, monetarily or otherwise, for criminal actions.

[Kazahel]

Seeker79, on 03 March 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

Really kaz.... While I agree with the first part... The second is completely ignoring sociopathic and narcissist tendencys that are not at all born of neglect.

The second part was just an in jest poke at how it sometimes feels we are already living in the perfect prison.

[MissMelsWell]

So I think people misunderstand why there are TV's in prisons. (that always seems to come up in this kind of conversation)

The TVs aren't really for the prisoners. It's for the system itself. First, in most state pens, TV's aren't doled out by rote. They have to be purchased by the prisoners friends or family and on average range from $2400 to $4000, they're specially made televisions so they can't be taken apart and have clear plexi cases so that the COs can see inside of them at all times. The reason prisons allow them is because they are MARVELOUS distractions for inmates. An inmate who is watching the Big Bang Theory is an inmate who isn't shanking his cell mate or otherwise pre-occupied with ways to harm or undermine the COs or system. Think of it as a babysitter. Honestly. I have NO problems with TVs in prison as long as the programming is well monitored (and it is).

I don't like the idea of making inmates work. At least not at jobs where they're making a product that later gets sold in the public sector. There are too many honest people out of work already who need those jobs.

What I DO think more prisons should have is job training and they should be making better liasons with the public sector to put these people to work after release. One of the reasons recitivism is SO high for so many is because they can't find gainful employment after release. they go right back to selling drugs or knocking over liquor stores because they can't work, no one will hire them. That needs to change.

Prisons do the best they can given the circumstances. Prison is no cake walk. But prison, regardless of the harshness, has never been a deterrent either.

There are bits and pieces of each of the replies here that I agree with .... I like the idea of bland healthy diets in prison. I like the idea, in some ways, of regimented almost boot camp like formations (although there is some of that already, but I like the idea of that for yard time). I like the idea of an effort for rehabilitation and diagnosis' for inmates as well.

My mom recently did a teaching gig at one of our state prisons... she taught a rather large group of inmates yoga and guided meditation. hahaha (she's run a yoga studio for years) it was quite well received and she's been asked back to hold more classes. I don't think that there's anything wrong with providing those kinds of donated services to those inside who want it. If the service helps them to learn self control and positive self redirection for their aggression then so be it, it's worth it.

[R4z3rsPar4d0x]

Rlyeh, on 01 March 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Like this one (first one)

WOW that Black Dolphin prison is crazy...But I mean when asking this type of question there is never gonna be any perfect scenerio because the justice system is SO screwed up

[OverSword]

How about iso-cubes?  I've been a big Judge Dread fan since the 80's and that is where the prisoners in Mega City One are sent.

[Timmeh]

Why not try and rehabilitate first time offenders unless it is a violent crime and then when the reoffend get them crushing the big rocks?

[Bavarian Raven]

I say make them more harsh. Take away all their "nice toys" and send them north, up into the territories to work/serve out their sentences. At least in Canada, we have plenty of Arctic Islands to choose from. Mosquitoes in the summer; cold and wind and eternal darkness in the winter. Too cruel for them? Fine. Go ahead and leave. You got the better part of a thousand kilometers of ice and snow and rock and polar bears till the nearest settlement. Good luck.