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And the Sun Stood Still


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#106    Jor-el

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:30 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 21 March 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

'Time' dosnt 'flow' anywhere. It's merely the differences in how any particular clock records it's ticks. All this is just the effect of information being constrained by the speed of light limit. There is no 'time' it's just how any individual frame of reference ticks compared to another. There is no 'time' to enable change, change just happens. There can be no time bubble, there are no temporal rifts, and without "divine magic", there is nothing in physics no matter how sophisticated that even hints that any of this is possible on a physical level.

So, in other words, when scientists speak of the flow of time, you don't accept their language either?

I am simply repeating what many people are aware of, I can't help it if you disagree with physics.

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Look, I believe in miricles, and even god, though probably not the same as yours. It's just silly and makes theists look bad when they try to fit something like this into their rhetoric simply to defend literalism.

As to the rest of it, please correct if I'm wrong, you are saying that the sacrifice of Christ was that he has to be a wretched human for eternity because he was sent to save us? Is that scriptually supported? If not, don't give me a story give it to us straight.

In my personal view, yes that is exactly right. God is NOT human, People forget that sometimes. He doesn't have (or didn't have) a human body, He was God, the creator of the physical universe, I suspect that not even the angels can actually see God. So God made himself visible to those of the physical universe, by taking a physical form, which we call Jesus, but before the actual birth of Jesus he was known by a number of names.

Metatron is identified with the term "lesser YHVH", which is the Lesser Tetragrammaton, in a Talmudic version as cited by the Karaite scholar Kirkisani. He is also known as the "Word" of God or the "Memra" of God. This physical and tactile being also calls himself Yahweh on a number of occasions. In others he is called "the angel of the Lord". All these ideas and accompanying terminologies are part of what is termed "Theophany".

Why do we have so many instances of God actually appearing to men (and they DON'T die), because it is this physical part of God that appeared to them, the part we call the son, to differentiate from the invisible and very deadly part we call the father.

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How exactly was Jesus a sacrifice? It would seem to me that 30 or so years on earth would be a mere blip in gods eyes and his death would be simply a comeing home or if he is god, then the simple death of his avatar... Much like a video game. I really want to know the Christian reasoning behind this. A straight answer would be nice.

So let me ask a dumb question, when is God going to shed that "Avatar"? The answer is NEVER. That right there is a huge sacrifice.

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#107    Ben Masada

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostJor-el, on 19 March 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

That is the God we believe in, not some theoretical being that does not involve itself in its own creation. Why are we believers? Because God is actually there for us and that sometimes includes miracles. You can rationalize it all you want but the truth is that a God that doesn't care for his people is not God at all.

What would be a miracle to the Creator of the universe? The answer to this question is that either there are no miracles or God does not make them. Baruch de Spinoza says in his book, "Tractatus Theologico-Politico" that to attribute miracles to God is to bring Him down to the level of man. How could the fixing of a watch be a miracle to the watch repairman?

Ben


#108    Jor-el

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:41 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 21 March 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

What would be a miracle to the Creator of the universe? The answer to this question is that either there are no miracles or God does not make them. Baruch de Spinoza says in his book, "Tractatus Theologico-Politico" that to attribute miracles to God is to bring Him down to the level of man. How could the fixing of a watch be a miracle to the watch repairman?

Ben

Because the term "miracle" is not used from the viewpoint of the "watch repairman", but rather from the viewpoint of the client.

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#109    Ben Masada

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:53 PM

View PostJor-el, on 21 March 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Because the term "miracle" is not used from the viewpoint of the "watch repairman", but rather from the viewpoint of the client.

Right! You are absolutely correct. Miracle is in the eye of the listener who is willing to believe.


#110    Jor-el

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 21 March 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

Right! You are absolutely correct. Miracle is in the eye of the listener who is willing to believe.

So just because the watch maker can fix a broken watch, its not a miracle, except in the eyes of the client. It doesn't make it any less incredible if you are the client, isn't that so?

A miracle is an intervention by God that cannot be explained by natural events., to me the person saved, it is a miracle, to God, it is another day on the Job...

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#111    Ben Masada

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:57 PM

View PostJor-el, on 21 March 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

So just because the watch maker can fix a broken watch, its not a miracle, except in the eyes of the client. It doesn't make it any less incredible if you are the client, isn't that so?

A miracle is an intervention by God that cannot be explained by natural events., to me the person saved, it is a miracle, to God, it is another day on the Job...

What is not incredible to the expert?


#112    Jor-el

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 22 March 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

What is not incredible to the expert?

As I said, the miracle is not seen as such by the expert, but it is seen as such by the client. To God no miracle was performed to the person who recieved that grace, they cannot help but call it such.

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#113    Ben Masada

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:13 PM

View PostJor-el, on 24 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

As I said, the miracle is not seen as such by the expert, but it is seen as such by the client. To God no miracle was performed to the person who recieved that grace, they cannot help but call it such.

"But call it such." How such, a miracle of God? According to the great Philosopher Baruch de Spinoza miracles cannot be attributed to God. If to make the shadow of the sun go back ten degrees is a miracle of God, how would His creation of the universe be called?

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 26 March 2013 - 06:14 PM.


#114    Jor-el

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:34 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 26 March 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

"But call it such." How such, a miracle of God? According to the great Philosopher Baruch de Spinoza miracles cannot be attributed to God. If to make the shadow of the sun go back ten degrees is a miracle of God, how would His creation of the universe be called?

Ben

What in your view is a miracle?

How would you classify the term?

For me, a miracle is a term used by human beings to define the intervention of God in a way that is beyond the normal course of nature or laws of the physical universe.

That is how the term is viewed by most people. Baruch Espinoza might say that one cannot attribute miracles to God, but by saying such a thing he is deviating from the standard understanding of what a miracle is supposed to be. It is like calling a chicken, a duck, just because they are both birds.

I say that the term miracle cannot be used by God of his own works, but we, his creations certainly can use the term in the spirit it was intended to be used.

If God can manipulat time, then to him these are not miracles, they are within his capacity as creator to them, but we cannot do these things and may never be able to do them, that is why we use the term miracle, to define an action that can ONLY be masde by God himself.

You also ask what we should call his creation of the universe, if we call "making the shadow of the sun go back ten degrees", a miracle... well the answe is, we also call it a miracle. The difference between them is one of degree.

It like me asking you, what the difference between a lie and a murder is?

In truth they are both sins and without repentance either one exclusively can condemn you. Although both are sin, they are different only in degree, not in their nature.

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#115    Ben Masada

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:21 PM

View PostJor-el, on 26 March 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

What in your view is a miracle?

How would you classify the term?

For me, a miracle is a term used by human beings to define the intervention of God in a way that is beyond the normal course of nature or laws of the physical universe.

That is how the term is viewed by most people. Baruch Espinoza might say that one cannot attribute miracles to God, but by saying such a thing he is deviating from the standard understanding of what a miracle is supposed to be. It is like calling a chicken, a duck, just because they are both birds.

I say that the term miracle cannot be used by God of his own works, but we, his creations certainly can use the term in the spirit it was intended to be used.

If God can manipulat time, then to him these are not miracles, they are within his capacity as creator to them, but we cannot do these things and may never be able to do them, that is why we use the term miracle, to define an action that can ONLY be masde by God himself.

You also ask what we should call his creation of the universe, if we call "making the shadow of the sun go back ten degrees", a miracle... well the answe is, we also call it a miracle. The difference between them is one of degree.

It like me asking you, what the difference between a lie and a murder is?

In truth they are both sins and without repentance either one exclusively can condemn you. Although both are sin, they are different only in degree, not in their nature.

I cannot classify what does not exist. A miracle is the absence of natural order as darkness is the absence of light, time the absence of motion and evil the absence of good. Have you ever eyewitnessed a miracle? No, you have not. Why? Because a miracle is in the ear of the listener willing to believe. Many claims of miracles in the past have been explained not to have been a miracle at all. Everyone has heard about a miracle but no one has ever seen one to happen.

Ben


#116    Jor-el

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:26 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 26 March 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

I cannot classify what does not exist. A miracle is the absence of natural order as darkness is the absence of light, time the absence of motion and evil the absence of good. Have you ever eyewitnessed a miracle? No, you have not. Why? Because a miracle is in the ear of the listener willing to believe. Many claims of miracles in the past have been explained not to have been a miracle at all. Everyone has heard about a miracle but no one has ever seen one to happen.

Ben

Ben in my time I have seen two miracles.... with my own eyes I witnessed them.

While miracles do not abound, they do exist.

A miracle is not the absence of the natural order, it is the imposition of Gods will on the natural order. Since I believe in a living God who cares for us, because I have actually spoken to him, I cannot in good conscience let that pass.

Edited by Jor-el, 26 March 2013 - 07:29 PM.

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-C. S. Lewis


#117    Ben Masada

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostJor-el, on 26 March 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Ben in my time I have seen two miracles.... with my own eyes I witnessed them.

While miracles do not abound, they do exist.

A miracle is not the absence of the natural order, it is the imposition of Gods will on the natural order. Since I believe in a living God who cares for us, because I have actually spoken to him, I cannot in good conscience let that pass.

See what I mean? Now, wait a little longer and you will understand that what you saw was not a miracle after all. And about your definition that "A miracle is the imposition of God's will on the natural order" goes against two tenets of Lorgic. First that it constitutes a contradiction to God's own design to work orderly according to established natural laws and second that what you saw could in no way be defined as a miracle to the Creator of the universe.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 26 March 2013 - 07:55 PM.


#118    Jor-el

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:16 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 26 March 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

See what I mean? Now, wait a little longer and you will understand that what you saw was not a miracle after all. And about your definition that "A miracle is the imposition of God's will on the natural order" goes against two tenets of Lorgic. First that it constitutes a contradiction to God's own design to work orderly according to established natural laws and second that what you saw could in no way be defined as a miracle to the Creator of the universe.

Ben

Nope what I saw were actual miracles, not assumptions and not figments of my imagination. One had to do with me personally, another had to do with a 3rd party.

What is Gods own design and work?

Moses crossed a sea that should not have divided, Ben.

God destroyed the entire world except for a handfull of people who believed in him Ben.

You may consider the bible, to mostly metaphorical, but Ben who is not giving God the credit here, you or me?

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#119    Ben Masada

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:14 PM

View PostJor-el, on 26 March 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Nope what I saw were actual miracles, not assumptions and not figments of my imagination. One had to do with me personally, another had to do with a 3rd party.

What is Gods own design and work?

Moses crossed a sea that should not have divided, Ben.

God destroyed the entire world except for a handfull of people who believed in him Ben.

You may consider the bible, to mostly metaphorical, but Ben who is not giving God the credit here, you or me?

God's own design and work is what he performs through natural laws.

Regarding the opening of seas or rivers, so did Elisha, and so did Joshua, and so did the Israelis in 1967. And all "At dry feet." The Lord might have caused the crossing of the sea through the handiworks of Moses' men. Or somehow found a solution to their terrible troubles which is what waters mean.

With regards to the Flood, it could have been local although not local enough to see dry land from the Ark. Then we have floods reported by other cultures in the region. Since we could not have more than one flood of that size, some floods could have been only their way to enrich their Literature.

I am the one giving the credit to God through natural laws. IMHO, credit is denied the Lord when we literally claim He acted personally.

Ben


#120    Jor-el

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:46 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 28 March 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

God's own design and work is what he performs through natural laws.

Regarding the opening of seas or rivers, so did Elisha, and so did Joshua, and so did the Israelis in 1967. And all "At dry feet." The Lord might have caused the crossing of the sea through the handiworks of Moses' men. Or somehow found a solution to their terrible troubles which is what waters mean.

With regards to the Flood, it could have been local although not local enough to see dry land from the Ark. Then we have floods reported by other cultures in the region. Since we could not have more than one flood of that size, some floods could have been only their way to enrich their Literature.

I am the one giving the credit to God through natural laws. IMHO, credit is denied the Lord when we literally claim He acted personally.

Ben

The natural laws are all well and good, they are part of the natural order of the universe but that only makes God a very good architect. What makes God, God, is what he does for his children over and above that little fact.

I am mostly a proponent of God using natural laws to good effect, if the universe is deterministic, then there is nothing to say that when he started the ball rolling all his "miracles" were already accounted for and included in that "beginning". But I also believe that God is more than a maintainer of the natural order, He demonstrates his love for us, not in some abstract way like some distant father, but more like a father who lives with and acompanies his children everywhere. He provides for them, he maintains them and he keeps them strong, that is the God of the bible and the God of loving mercy.

Exodus 7:9

"When Pharaoh says to you, 'Prove yourselves by working a miracle,' then you shall say to Aaron, 'Take your staff and cast it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.'"

If God does not "do" miracles, and keeps to the natural order, then why did he actually transform Aarons staff and turn it into an actual serpent. I would think that goes abit against the established rules of that "natural order" you are defending.

Edited by Jor-el, 28 March 2013 - 09:46 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

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