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And the Sun Stood Still


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#151    Ben Masada

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:59 PM

View PostJor-el, on 13 April 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

He must have slumbered?

So he must have been half asleep and imagined the whole and detailed thing?

Is there absolutely any and I really mean any indication in the text itself that we are talking of a vision or even a dream?

The answer is no... one has to start with that assumption, the text makes no such mention of such an occurrence in any way, form or shape.

You on the other hand, need it to be read in this light, otherwise you would have to admit to "Two powers in Heaven" theology.

Jorel, was Moses a prophet or was he not? Yes Ben, he was a prophet. Good! Now read the quote I gave you in Numbers 12:6. If the Lord indeed made His will known to Moses and talked to him, it was by means of a short dream/vision. There is no other way. Unless you do not believe in God's Word.


#152    Ben Masada

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:06 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 13 April 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

One can fairly readily trace the evolution of God in the Abrahamic faiths from a storm god who loses his temper and fights with other gods and is really vengeful and often brutal into the transcendent, infinite loving deity of the more liberal modern faiths.  Unfortunatly the traces of that old god are still around giving people of closed mind and hateful tendencies something to pin their smallness on.

Hi Frank. I would like to let you know that God is not subject to evolution but man is. What has undergone evolution from Abraham to our modern times is man and not God. Only people who do not understand metaphorical language in the Bible blame God with the things of man because of the natural tendency to anthropomorphize God down to the level of man.

Ben


#153    Ben Masada

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:10 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 13 April 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Oh come on now; just read the early OT compared to the late OT compared to the NT compared to Augustine and Aquinas.

I see no possibility to compare the OT with the NT or to Augustine and Aquinas as there is no how to compare Judaism with Hellenism or Mithraism. It is like comparing apples with oranges.

Ben


#154    Jor-el

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:04 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 13 April 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

Jorel, was Moses a prophet or was he not? Yes Ben, he was a prophet. Good! Now read the quote I gave you in Numbers 12:6. If the Lord indeed made His will known to Moses and talked to him, it was by means of a short dream/vision. There is no other way. Unless you do not believe in God's Word.

In Hebrew, the word נָבִיא (navi), "spokesperson", traditionally translates as "prophet". The second subdivision of the Hebrew Bible, TaNaKh (for "Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim"), is devoted to the Hebrew prophets. The meaning of navi is described in Deuteronomy 18:18, where God said, "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him."

A prophet in other words is Gods Spokesman or woman to the people, there are prophets who saw visions, there are prophets who had dreams, but prophets also acted out parables, like Hosea marrying a prostitute, to parallel Israel's prostitution with idolatry. Prophets also had other experiences that cannot be reduced to either dream or vision. You have chosen a verse that allows you to shorten the definition of prophet, but it is a false description and I think everybody recognizes this.

Sarah was herself a prophet according to Jewish views and there is not a single record of her having a vision or a dream...

The ancient Jews would be appalled by this kind of thinking to avoid their anthropomorphic wording.

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#155    Ben Masada

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:40 PM

View PostJor-el, on 13 April 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

In Hebrew, the word נָבִיא (navi), "spokesperson", traditionally translates as "prophet". The second subdivision of the Hebrew Bible, TaNaKh (for "Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim"), is devoted to the Hebrew prophets. The meaning of navi is described in Deuteronomy 18:18, where God said, "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him."

A prophet in other words is Gods Spokesman or woman to the people, there are prophets who saw visions, there are prophets who had dreams, but prophets also acted out parables, like Hosea marrying a prostitute, to parallel Israel's prostitution with idolatry. Prophets also had other experiences that cannot be reduced to either dream or vision. You have chosen a verse that allows you to shorten the definition of prophet, but it is a false description and I think everybody recognizes this.

Sarah was herself a prophet according to Jewish views and there is not a single record of her having a vision or a dream...

The ancient Jews would be appalled by this kind of thinking to avoid their anthropomorphic wording.

Okay, IOW, as I can see, you do not believe the Torah; at least not in Numbers 12:6.  That's as visions and dreams are concerned. I agree with you that's only one part of being a prophet. The main function indeed of a prophet is to speak for God to the community. In that sense the whole People of Israel, the Jews are Immanuel, a nation of prophets as God's Word was entrusted to them to manifest the glory of God in the sight of the nations. (Exo. 19:6; Isa. 8:8; Eze.20:41)  But that prophet like unto Moses promised in Deuteronomy 18:18 was Joshua and not a prophet in the long run future.  

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 15 April 2013 - 08:41 PM.


#156    Jor-el

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:36 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 15 April 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

Okay, IOW, as I can see, you do not believe the Torah; at least not in Numbers 12:6.  That's as visions and dreams are concerned. I agree with you that's only one part of being a prophet. The main function indeed of a prophet is to speak for God to the community. In that sense the whole People of Israel, the Jews are Immanuel, a nation of prophets as God's Word was entrusted to them to manifest the glory of God in the sight of the nations. (Exo. 19:6; Isa. 8:8; Eze.20:41)  But that prophet like unto Moses promised in Deuteronomy 18:18 was Joshua and not a prophet in the long run future.  

Ben

No, I actually do believe in the Torah, it is scripture no less and no more important than the rest of the Tanakh. You yourself admit that Numbers 12:6 is only part of what a prophet is. Prophecy can indeed come in dreams and visions.

Does not Joel 2:28-29 say as much?

28 “And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.

29 Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit


But to prophesy does not mean that one is prophet. It is merely a result of being filled with the Spirit of God. I have done so myself on occasion, but I am no prophet. A prophet is something much more than that, it is to be a literal mouthpiece for God, to convey his exact words and instructions, and also to live a life solely dedicated to Him and his word. I see in my mind, men like Isaiah and Jeremiah, John the Baptist, these were prophets. Their very lives were a prophetic statement.

Can an entire people be this? Yes, but I do not see it as yet. Has Israel in fact manifested Gods Glory in the sight of the nations? No, I have yet to see it. It will come but that is not where you are now as a nation.

Moses was a prophet, but please do not try to pull the wool over "the scripture"s eyes when you deviate from what is written about him. If it says he dreamed and had visions all well and good, when it says he spoke to the Lord and actually looked upon him, then that is exactly what he meant to say. It is not an error, it is not a dream that he supposedly had. Either one believes the word, or one doesn't. Especially in something this important.

I am not trying to be difficult here, I am just telling it as I see it.

Edited by Jor-el, 15 April 2013 - 09:37 PM.

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#157    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:48 PM

View PostJor-el, on 15 April 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

No, I actually do believe in the Torah, it is scripture no less and no more important than the rest of the Tanakh. You yourself admit that Numbers 12:6 is only part of what a prophet is. Prophecy can indeed come in dreams and visions.

Does not Joel 2:28-29 say as much?

28 “And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.

29 Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit


But to prophesy does not mean that one is prophet. It is merely a result of being filled with the Spirit of God. I have done so myself on occasion, but I am no prophet. A prophet is something much more than that, it is to be a literal mouthpiece for God, to convey his exact words and instructions, and also to live a life solely dedicated to Him and his word. I see in my mind, men like Isaiah and Jeremiah, John the Baptist, these were prophets. Their very lives were a prophetic statement.

Can an entire people be this? Yes, but I do not see it as yet. Has Israel in fact manifested Gods Glory in the sight of the nations? No, I have yet to see it. It will come but that is not where you are now as a nation.

Moses was a prophet, but please do not try to pull the wool over "the scripture"s eyes when you deviate from what is written about him. If it says he dreamed and had visions all well and good, when it says he spoke to the Lord and actually looked upon him, then that is exactly what he meant to say. It is not an error, it is not a dream that he supposedly had. Either one believes the word, or one doesn't. Especially in something this important.

I am not trying to be difficult here, I am just telling it as I see it.

Prophecies come only in dreams and visions. "If there is a prophet among you, in a dream I will make Myself known to him; in a vision I will speak to him." (Num. 12:6) To prophesy does mean that one is a prophet. False or legitimate but still a prophet. And to prophesy is not only to predict future events but also to preach the Truth. Now if it is according to the Law and the Prophets he is legitimate; if it is not he is a false prophet. (Isa.8:20)  You can't see the entire Jewish People as a nation of prophets because of your preconceived notions. They don't have to make their voice heard in the public places but just for being present after all that has happened to them qualifies them as a nation of prophets. Mark Twain well illustrates my words in an Essay about the immortality of the Jewish People.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 18 April 2013 - 06:50 PM.


#158    Jor-el

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 18 April 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

Prophecies come only in dreams and visions. "If there is a prophet among you, in a dream I will make Myself known to him; in a vision I will speak to him." (Num. 12:6) To prophesy does mean that one is a prophet. False or legitimate but still a prophet. And to prophesy is not only to predict future events but also to preach the Truth. Now if it is according to the Law and the Prophets he is legitimate; if it is not he is a false prophet. (Isa.8:20)  You can't see the entire Jewish People as a nation of prophets because of your preconceived notions. They don't have to make their voice heard in the public places but just for being present after all that has happened to them qualifies them as a nation of prophets. Mark Twain well illustrates my words in an Essay about the immortality of the Jewish People.

Ben

Prophecies come only in dreams and visions

Bull!  Prophecies come however which way God deems fit to use at any given moment. Look carefully at the scripture I used...

28 “And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.

29 Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit


It says God would pour out his Spirit on ALL FLESH, that means all of humanity, or at least those that are willing to listen to him. It then proceeds to specify that the sons and daughters will prophesy. Old men will dream dreams and young men will see visions. Three different aspects of this outporing of the Spirit are evident and they are not all the same. You stick to Num. 12:6 like a tick sticks to the hairy coat of a sheep and by doing so you misrepresent that verse, because it doesn't interest you to see it any other way.

Prophecy is a gift of the Spirit of God, but it is not even close to actually having the ministry of a Prophet. If you take the time to study the various ministries of God, you would know this to be true. In no way have I ever said that prophesying has got to do with future events, prophesying is speaking the words of God as he gives them to you. many people have done this on occasion, or even once in a lifetime, but they are not prophets as the term is used within an actual ministry as is the case of Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and so many others. Those people were set apart and anointed for that specific activity.

I may have some preconcieved notions, but so do you, since you think all of Israel is at this time a nation of Prophets, but the text says ALL FLESH, does it not, that means Israel is not alone in being a nation of prophets. See if I have to accept your view, then you certainly have to accept the natural consequence of that view according to scripture.

Edited by Jor-el, 18 April 2013 - 08:11 PM.

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#159    Ben Masada

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostJor-el, on 18 April 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

Prophecies come only in dreams and visions

Bull!  Prophecies come however which way God deems fit to use at any given moment. Look carefully at the scripture I used...

28 “And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.

29 Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit


It says God would pour out his Spirit on ALL FLESH, that means all of humanity, or at least those that are willing to listen to him. It then proceeds to specify that the sons and daughters will prophesy. Old men will dream dreams and young men will see visions. Three different aspects of this outporing of the Spirit are evident and they are not all the same. You stick to Num. 12:6 like a tick sticks to the hairy coat of a sheep and by doing so you misrepresent that verse, because it doesn't interest you to see it any other way.

Prophecy is a gift of the Spirit of God, but it is not even close to actually having the ministry of a Prophet. If you take the time to study the various ministries of God, you would know this to be true. In no way have I ever said that prophesying has got to do with future events, prophesying is speaking the words of God as he gives them to you. many people have done this on occasion, or even once in a lifetime, but they are not prophets as the term is used within an actual ministry as is the case of Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and so many others. Those people were set apart and anointed for that specific activity.

I may have some preconcieved notions, but so do you, since you think all of Israel is at this time a nation of Prophets, but the text says ALL FLESH, does it not, that means Israel is not alone in being a nation of prophets. See if I have to accept your view, then you certainly have to accept the natural consequence of that view according to scripture.

You have said nothing contrary to my views of Numbers 12:6. "Old men shall dream dreams and young men shall have visions." Nothing different from Numbers 12:6. The dream occurs during the REM phase of sleeping and the vision either halfway between REM and the almost awaken state or during a light slumber. Thechnically they are almost the same. And I agree with you that prophesying is to speak the Word of God but according to Isaiah 8:20. If your speaking the Word of God is not according to the Law and the Prophets you are prophesying but as a false prophet. Do I have to tell you that there were and still are many of them? Most of them are false prophets. Almost all of them.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 20 April 2013 - 06:57 PM.


#160    Jor-el

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 20 April 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

You have said nothing contrary to my views of Numbers 12:6. "Old men shall dream dreams and young men shall have visions." Nothing different from Numbers 12:6. The dream occurs during the REM phase of sleeping and the vision either halfway between REM and the almost awaken state or during a light slumber. Thechnically they are almost the same. And I agree with you that prophesying is to speak the Word of God but according to Isaiah 8:20. If your speaking the Word of God is not according to the Law and the Prophets you are prophesying but as a false prophet. Do I have to tell you that there were and still are many of them? Most of them are false prophets. Almost all of them.

Ben

God upholds his word, if the prophet speaks and God upholds that word, then there is no greater testimony to the prophet being a true prophet of God. Or do false prophets speak truth?

In my very own experience, I have spoken to God and he has spoken to me, not in visions and dreams but while I was wide awake and quite lucid. I heard his voice and spoke the words he gave me. He gave me information that changed a persons life around, information that no one else knew and that I then used as I spoke to that person. The effect was beyond belief and the results honoured God. So forgive me if I am skeptical of your position, the evidence of the bible and even of my personal experience contradict it.

You see the Spirit of God is still around and quite active and it has gone out to all flesh as the word of God said it would.

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#161    MasterFlint

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:21 AM

The sun literally stood still.  That's what I believe actually happened, and that's what the text says happened.  If someone doesn't believe then just don't believe, I don't understand why non believers have to make up all sorts of crap as a possible explanation?  Like people saying Jesus walked on an iceberg when he walked on water and stuff?  If you don't believe it then don't believe it, but why completely make up your own story or outlandish explanation for stuff?

The Bible says what it says, take it or leave it.


#162    Jor-el

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:54 PM

View PostMasterFlint, on 21 April 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

The sun literally stood still.  That's what I believe actually happened, and that's what the text says happened.  If someone doesn't believe then just don't believe, I don't understand why non believers have to make up all sorts of crap as a possible explanation?  Like people saying Jesus walked on an iceberg when he walked on water and stuff?  If you don't believe it then don't believe it, but why completely make up your own story or outlandish explanation for stuff?

The Bible says what it says, take it or leave it.

As you may know, the discussion is not between believers and unbelievers at this time but rather interpretation of the text as literal or metaphorical.

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#163    Ben Masada

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:48 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 April 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

God upholds his word, if the prophet speaks and God upholds that word, then there is no greater testimony to the prophet being a true prophet of God. Or do false prophets speak truth?

In my very own experience, I have spoken to God and he has spoken to me, not in visions and dreams but while I was wide awake and quite lucid. I heard his voice and spoke the words he gave me. He gave me information that changed a persons life around, information that no one else knew and that I then used as I spoke to that person. The effect was beyond belief and the results honoured God. So forgive me if I am skeptical of your position, the evidence of the bible and even of my personal experience contradict it.

You see the Spirit of God is still around and quite active and it has gone out to all flesh as the word of God said it would.

And all you are asked to do is to open the Bible and show me where the Biblical evidence contradicts my views.


#164    Ben Masada

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:56 PM

View PostMasterFlint, on 21 April 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

The sun literally stood still.  That's what I believe actually happened, and that's what the text says happened.  If someone doesn't believe then just don't believe, I don't understand why non believers have to make up all sorts of crap as a possible explanation?  Like people saying Jesus walked on an iceberg when he walked on water and stuff?  If you don't believe it then don't believe it, but why completely make up your own story or outlandish explanation for stuff?

The Bible says what it says, take it or leave it.

Well my friend, what is wtitten has been written for two kinds of readers: Those of the literal interpretation club and for those who understand metaphorical language. A literal interpretation in this case would be totally rejected by Scientists as an unexplainable myth contrary to all physical laws. As a result of a metaphorical interpretation even an atheist would find no reason to laugh.

Ben


#165    Jor-el

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:23 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 23 April 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

And all you are asked to do is to open the Bible and show me where the Biblical evidence contradicts my views.

Which views exactly, the ones pertaining to the thread itself or the ones we went of on a tangent with.

Either way. I have demonstrated by many uses in the text of the very bible itself that in regards to prophets your words are a narrow and limited interpretation. For your views to be accepted you really need to explain all the myriad examples where prophets do, say, see and feel things that are evidently not visions or dreams. But truthfully that is all you do seem to state, visions and dreams, visions and dreams as if that is all that God uses to interact and speak to his people. Your definition limits God as if he has to respect your views on how he should do things. You ignore the evidence time and again.

As for the thread topic, you can stick with the metaphor, but God himself is quite capable of manipulating the very thing he created, time and space and he doesn't even need to suspend or even contradict natural physical laws to do it.

Have you ever considered that God is perfectly capable of defending his name without us?

We don't have to kowtow to the atheists because they snicker at our "apparent" ignorance of the elementary laws of physics. As Paul of Tarsus once said: The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him. Their real problem is not with the laws of physics themselves, it is with the very concept of God.

Edited by Jor-el, 23 April 2013 - 09:24 PM.

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