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Why is the bible not to be questioned?


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#16    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 04 March 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Be gentle: "straight-jacket" is a metaphor; I don't think he meant it literally.

The reason Christians resort to the Bible to test the message of any voice  (or other prophet for that matter) is that this is what they've been taught.

In fact, that is not what Jesus said to do.  He said to test the tree by the fruit it bears.  If it bears good fruit, then it is of God, but if it bears rotten fruit, then it is not.  He does not mention any test by comparing with scripture.

I.M.O. the bible(s) is/are a tree(s) that does not bear good fruit.  So....

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
Jewish gematria # 629:
The holy bible
Demonic inspiration

#17    CrimsonKing

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:45 PM

Spirit check your number of likes lol

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#18    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:51 PM

I think the basic problem is that certain more traditional followers of Christianity seem to believe that all the Bible has equal weight, and anything that may have been said by any of the writers of any of the books, even if they have not very much to do with the basic narrative and message of the Bible, must be treated as, well, Holy Writ. They don't seem to appreciate how it was put together or what a long timescale the various books that go into making it up cover, and that many of these books (the OT most obviously, but also things like the Letters of Paul) were never intended to be put together in a manual for what followers of Christianity should believe. Really, there's an awful lot in it that's pretty much superfluous to the basic thrust of it (God's relationship with Humanity, the background to the yearning for a Messiah, and of course what should be the most overwhelmingly important part for Christians, the story and teachings of Jesus), and a very large amount of the dogmas that are so doggedly held are really nothing at all to do with the teachings of Jesus.  I think that the mistake people made was taking phrases like "the Word of God" literally, and taking it as meaning that every single thing, even the interminable laws in Leviticus and so on, were dictated by God personally.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:


#19    shadowhive

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:56 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 04 March 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

I often hear from Christians that if something is not Bible based it cannot be trusted and that if we feel we hear God speaking but it can't be backed up by the bible then it must not be God. I want to know why people believe this is true and at what point will we be able to recognize God more genuinely without the guilt of having to reference back to a source outside of ourselves. Looking for genuine Christian opinions on this.

I think the bible has become a massive problem because christians feel the need to 'reference' the book all the time. The bible is several hundred years old and people should really be able to not only think for themselves but use sources other than the bible. The bible certainly should be questioned if we find things that contradict it and they shouldn't be ignored because 'the bible says so'.

If I heard 'god' you know what I'd do? Get myself checked by a professional, because it could be a symptom of a very serious mental health problem. Just because you hear a voice that claims to be god and tells you to do something doesn't mean it is. As such I don't really trust anyone that says they 'heard god speak to them' or 'god breathed' texts because whats not to say they didn't have what would amount to a serious mental health problem?

I think there's an even bigger question though. Why should we, as a species, submit our will to what is (essentially) a supernatural foreign power? I really don't understand the appeal or logic of it at all

Edited by shadowhive, 04 March 2013 - 05:01 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#20    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:02 PM

Martin Luther needed a counter to the Papal claim of the Succession of Peter as the authority for church teaching, and he latched onto Scripture for the purpose.


#21    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:06 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 04 March 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

I think the bible has become a massive problem because christians feel the need to 'reference' the book all the time. The bible is several hundred years old and people should really be able to not only think for themselves but use sources other than the bible. The bible certainly should be questioned if we find things that contradict it and they shouldn't be ignored because 'the bible says so'.


yes; I tend to use it as a rule of thumb that if anyone says "because it's in the Bible" and folds their arms as if that's the end to the matter in response to any discussion about any aspect of Biblical matters, then there's really no point trying to discuss anything with them, as they really won't be open to any new ways of considering things. Or at the very least, if the Bible really is to be the ultimate authority, then the actual things that Jesus said and did should surely have overwhelming priority.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:


#22    SpiritWriter

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:08 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 04 March 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:



I think the bible has become a massive problem because christians feel the need to 'reference' the book all the time. The bible is several hundred years old and people should really be able to not only think for themselves but use sources other than the bible. The bible certainly should be questioned if we find things that contradict it and they shouldn't be ignored because 'the bible says so'.

If I heard 'god' you know what I'd do? Get myself checked by a professional, because it could be a symptom of a very serious mental health problem. Just because you hear a voice that claims to be god and tells you to do something doesn't mean it is. As such I don't really trust anyone that says they 'heard god speak to them' or 'god breathed' texts because whats not to say they didn't have what would amount to a serious mental health problem?

I think there's an even bigger question though. Why should we, as a species, submit our will to what is (essentially) a supernatural foreign power? I really don't understand the appeal or logic of it at all

Thats the thing, its not a foreign power but an integral one. And you can judge what is god speaking or god breathed based on what is being said using your own judgement.. if it leads to love, peace, balance, spiritual growth and understanding it is a cure to mind disease, if it leads to rage, violence, discontentment or imbalance (temporary imbalance is ok for transitional periods but shouldn't be a permanant condition) than it is an increase in mind disease. If god isn't serving as a healer it is of no purpose and if you are being healed and transformed than this in essence is the doctor, primary health care providers can in no way compare to this...

Edited by SpiritWriter, 04 March 2013 - 05:10 PM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#23    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:12 PM

Scripture -- all scripture, not just the Bible -- should be taken as inspired, useful for teaching in righteousness.  To me that means that we treat passages that have over the course of history come to be viewed as scripture with great respect, listening seriously to what they tell us.  It does not mean we worship them.


#24    shadowhive

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:16 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 04 March 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Thats the thing, its not a foreign power but an integral one. And you can judge what is god speaking or god breathed based on what is being said using your own judgement.. if it leads to love, peace, balance, spiritual growth and understanding it is a cure to mind disease, if it leads to rage, violence, discontentment or imbalance (temporary imbalance is ok for transitional periods but shouldn't be a permanant condition) than it is an increase in mind disease. If god isn't serving as a healer it is of no purpose and if you are being healed and transformed than this in essence is the doctor, primary health care providers can in no way compare to this...

All that is, to me, is a change of wording to make it seem nicer and more reasonable.

The trouble with that is that much of the bible has led to rage violence, discontentment and imbalance... but the christians still want to keep it as if it's the best thing ever despite that. Why?

The whole thing makes absoutely no sense. Let's say the universe was made by a creator god. Well the universe is, first and foremost, huge. Secondly it is old. We are a tiny race on a tiny planet orbiting one star among billions in a galaxy among billions. So we are (in terms of creation) extremely small and insigificant. The universe is also much older than our ancestors. So why, why, does the creator of entire universe care about us at all?

I understand it in ancient civilisations, ones that didn't know all of that, but I dont understand why god would care about us (as a species or individually). The idea that someting that created the universe cares one jot about us just sounds insane.

Edited by shadowhive, 04 March 2013 - 05:17 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#25    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:18 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 04 March 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:



I think there's an even bigger question though. Why should we, as a species, submit our will to what is (essentially) a supernatural foreign power? I really don't understand the appeal or logic of it at all
I don't think (the way I personally see it) God, or whatever one wants to call it, is a "foreign power". I think it could be argued that the way Jesus saw it was that the entire universe - "creation", if you wanted to call it that, although that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to believe in "creation" literally - is part of God, and God is in everything. Really, I think you could say that it wasn't far off a panentheistic view - God is everywhere, but is also an intelligence over and above the material world. Not foreign, because everything is a part of this intelligence. I think the old "God as a being separate from Creation, who, like Santa, assesses whether everyone has been Bad or Good, and has Control over everything" is just another of those old fashioned literalistic ways of looking at the Bible.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:


#26    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:26 PM

I appreciate where you are, I think.  You know one possible drawback of that view is that it depersonalizes God -- it turns into something automatic or even mechanistic.  Taoism is accused of this sometimes.  Do we need to think of God as a person?  What are the consequences if we don't -- it seems to me perhaps even further alienation.

Who am I to say: I doubt there is any such thing anyway.


#27    SpiritWriter

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:35 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 04 March 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:



All that is, to me, is a change of wording to make it seem nicer and more reasonable.

The trouble with that is that much of the bible has led to rage violence, discontentment and imbalance... but the christians still want to keep it as if it's the best thing ever despite that. Why?

The whole thing makes absoutely no sense. Let's say the universe was made by a creator god. Well the universe is, first and foremost, huge. Secondly it is old. We are a tiny race on a tiny planet orbiting one star among billions in a galaxy among billions. So we are (in terms of creation) extremely small and insigificant. The universe is also much older than our ancestors. So why, why, does the creator of entire universe care about us at all?

I understand it in ancient civilisations, ones that didn't know all of that, but I dont understand why god would care about us (as a species or individually). The idea that someting that created the universe cares one jot about us just sounds insane.

Not to me, I think its beautiful that dispite our size compared to the vast universe God cares for us and also how much power we as individuals have to be transformed and have influence on the world. I really think its a matter of perception, if we value ourselves we can see how god values us, or... if we believe god values us we can begin to value ourselves. It is easy for me to see this because of the amazing ways god has shown me different things, protected me and provided for me all these years. I know its not the same for everyone but because of my circumstances I have been able to benefit from acknowledging god. :) and I'm greatful for that.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#28    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:41 PM

The religions are going to become insufferable if it turns out we are alone in the galaxy.


#29    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:47 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 04 March 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

I appreciate where you are, I think. You know one possible drawback of that view is that it depersonalizes God -- it turns into something automatic or even mechanistic. Taoism is accused of this sometimes. Do we need to think of God as a person? What are the consequences if we don't -- it seems to me perhaps even further alienation.

Who am I to say: I doubt there is any such thing anyway.
I think perhaps that's what the essence of Jesus' message was; that, if people followed his message, they'd learn how to personally feel the presence of the Spirit, since the Spirit was all around. it's not so much a remote, automatic system that keeps the universe functioning, it's an intelligence that you can have personal contact with- not as in talking one to one with a person, although perhaps some of the Prophets and mystics did do that, but feeling the presence of something greater than you, that makes you feel that you're part of the whole greater creation - I think that's what he meant by what those who put the dogma of Christianity together referred to as "salvation"; not meaning "saved" as in saved from falling off a cliff, but being made whole again, put back into your place as part of the universe.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:


#30    freetoroam

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:50 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 04 March 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Not to me, I think its beautiful that dispite our size compared to the vast universe God cares for us and also how much power we as individuals have to be transformed and have influence on the world. I really think its a matter of perception, if we value ourselves we can see how god values us, or... if we believe god values us we can begin to value ourselves. It is easy for me to see this because of the amazing ways god has shown me different things, protected me and provided for me all these years. I know its not the same for everyone but because of my circumstances I have been able to benefit from acknowledging god. :) and I'm greatful for that.
Thats very nice and touching, now if you could tell this to the likes of those I have put links to, the world would be an ideal place.

SORRY, the negatives are NOT to be questioned here. Will not mention it again.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.




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