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Why is the bible not to be questioned?


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#91    Paranoid Android

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:54 AM

View PostSherapy, on 06 March 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

Pa, for your consideration.


http://www.chabad.or...osen-People.htm

"In the Jewish understanding, chosenness leads not to arrogance, but rather to humility.

"To say that this is ethnocentric is absurd for one simple reason: anyone from any ethnic background can convert to Judaism and become chosen. Jewish chosenness is not a gene, it is a state of the soul. Anyone wishing to take it upon themselves is welcome -- as long as they are ready to have their bubble burst."
For the most part I agree with that article.  The only point I disagree with (and it is minor) is the following:  anyone from any ethnic background can convert to Judaism and become chosen.  Because I believe God's chosen people have extended already beyond the Jews and into the Gentile population via Jesus, my only real issue with the entire premise is that I would amend this to say anyone from any ethnic background can convert to Christianity and become chosen.  The rest, I like the idea that coming closer to God highlights our own insignificance in this mighty universe of ours and thus is not egocentric to believe in a chosen people.

That said, I am uncertain how this fits in with the comment I made about Abraham.  This site compliments my position nicely, so if you were attempting to back me up then I guess I should thank you for that :tu:

~ Regards, PA

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My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#92    Ehrman Pagels 1

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:31 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 07 March 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

The rest, I like the idea that coming closer to God highlights our own insignificance in this mighty universe of ours and thus is not egocentric to believe in a chosen people.
Hello Paranoid Android,

I understand your reasoning when it comes to the universe (because you are probably looking at it through the frailty of our flesh, but our ETERNAL soul is something else); however, does humility have something to do with feeling insignificant? Does it sound logical to make a person feel insignificant when your intention is for him or her to come closer to you, and have a loving and respectful relationship with you?

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u, 07 March 2013 - 01:47 PM.

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#93    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:33 PM

I think part of the problem here is the difference between the bible being a device of literature or a device of littoral communication. I think it's clear the the books of the bible are works of literature. Even the moderate Christians that understand metaphorical and allegorical references in the bible seem to take a literal approach if the story dosnt seem to be fantastic.

There is tremendous problem with this. Jesus himself often spoke in parables as examples. This dosnt mean that he ment for the story itself to be true, just the wisdom behind the story.  Christians then with any sort of literal leanings then miss the boat on christs message and the wisdom behind other stories aswell. It's a tragedy really. The bible is a wonderful peice spiritual LITERATURE. To hold the bible up as the actual mouth of God essentially makes the bible their god and therefore an idol. Jesus certainly did not do this with the scriptures of his time. If he is to be an example, Christians should be more like him.

My heart and thoughts lie closer to my own ancestors beleifs here in north america. Most native American holy men understood that the traditional stories held far more meaning than the literal truth of the words. That's why they never understood the dogma of other religions. Even today if you talk to a peiute, hopie holy, or any holy  man, their traditional stories are for their people alone and are not transposed onto other cultures. Some people see the illogic behind us, others know that it is about respect.

The literal tendencies of abrahamic faiths, and it's affect upon people, I find very disturbing. I do think a holy man existed once in the middle east that is the base for the Christian story. Whoever he was, I actually revear him very much. One of my heros actually weather what I know about him is fact or fiction.  As an intelligent teacher, I think he would be pretty p***ed off with what his followers have done with his message, but that is just a personal opinion.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#94    J. K.

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:40 PM

It is true that there are Christians who practically worship the Bible.  I knew a pastor who would always lay his Bible face up on his desk, and would never lay anything on top of it.

I myself don't treat the actual paper-and-bound item as a deity.  The words are just ink on paper...until you read them and meditate on them.  Only then do the words "come alive" and speak to you.  The Book of Psalms is an excellent example, in addition to the previously mentioned parables.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#95    wimfloppp

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:47 PM

nobody has heard the voice of god because there is no such person.where was god before the earth was here, floating about space ?


#96    IamsSon

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:03 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 07 March 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

I think part of the problem here is the difference between the bible being a device of literature or a device of littoral communication. I think it's clear the the books of the bible are works of literature. Even the moderate Christians that understand metaphorical and allegorical references in the bible seem to take a literal approach if the story dosnt seem to be fantastic.

There is tremendous problem with this. Jesus himself often spoke in parables as examples. This dosnt mean that he ment for the story itself to be true, just the wisdom behind the story.  Christians then with any sort of literal leanings then miss the boat on christs message and the wisdom behind other stories aswell. It's a tragedy really. The bible is a wonderful peice spiritual LITERATURE. To hold the bible up as the actual mouth of God essentially makes the bible their god and therefore an idol. Jesus certainly did not do this with the scriptures of his time. If he is to be an example, Christians should be more like him.

My heart and thoughts lie closer to my own ancestors beleifs here in north america. Most native American holy men understood that the traditional stories held far more meaning than the literal truth of the words. That's why they never understood the dogma of other religions. Even today if you talk to a peiute, hopie holy, or any holy  man, their traditional stories are for their people alone and are not transposed onto other cultures. Some people see the illogic behind us, others know that it is about respect.

The literal tendencies of abrahamic faiths, and it's affect upon people, I find very disturbing. I do think a holy man existed once in the middle east that is the base for the Christian story. Whoever he was, I actually revear him very much. One of my heros actually weather what I know about him is fact or fiction.  As an intelligent teacher, I think he would be pretty p***ed off with what his followers have done with his message, but that is just a personal opinion.

Quote

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” - C.S. Lewis


"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#97    SpiritWriter

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:15 PM

Oh lord...

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#98    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:24 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 07 March 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Bs.... There have been plenty of other men that say things just like Jesus or even better, and we cannot know for sure what Jesus actually said. Ever play telephone?

" I am William Wallace, I'm seven feet tall, I shoot fireballs from my eyes, and lightning bolts from my ass!!!!" (something like that) ---- Mel Gibson "Brave Heart"

---- I am Jesus Christ, I was born of a virgin, conquered hell, cured the blind, removed demons, raised the dead, was raised from the dead myself, and am the one true god incarnate upon the earth----

Same human process of legendary development. I doubt very much that the base for  Jesus actually ever claimed those things, but then again people do claim things like that these days don't they. Maby he just had some talented Marketers and pr people, or Mabey the 12 would have been those people  makeing millions at multilevel marketing schemes. Who knows. 80 to 100 years is a long time assuming the story has been accurately preserved from even then. A lifetime really. Llegendary inaccuracies can pop up in less than 10.

Non of it is reason enough to adopt the bible as my idol.

Edited by Seeker79, 07 March 2013 - 05:26 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#99    IamsSon

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:37 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 07 March 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Bs.... There have been plenty of other men that say things just like Jesus or even better, and we cannot know for sure what Jesus actually said. Ever play telephone?

" I am William Wallace, I'm seven feet tall, I shoot fireballs from my eyes, and lightning bolts from my ass!!!!" (something like that) ---- Mel Gibson "Brave Heart"

---- I am Jesus Christ, I was born of a virgin, conquered hell, cured the blind, removed demons, raised the dead, was raised from the dead myself, and am the one true god incarnate upon the earth----

Same human process of legendary development. I doubt very much that the base for  Jesus actually ever claimed those things, but then again people do claim things like that these days don't they. Maby he just had some talented Marketers and pr people, or Mabey the 12 would have been those people  makeing millions at multilevel marketing schemes. Who knows. 80 to 100 years is a long time assuming the story has been accurately preserved from even then. A lifetime really. Llegendary inaccuracies can pop up in less than 10.

Non of it is reason enough to adopt the bible as my idol.
Who is asking you to accept the Bible as your idol?  I certainly am not.

The thing is, if you have any question about whether Jesus's teachings are garbled then why would you "revere" him?  Based on what?

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#100    SpiritWriter

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:47 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 07 March 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:



---- I am Jesus Christ, I was born of a virgin, conquered hell, cured the blind, removed demons, raised the dead, was raised from the dead myself, and am the one true god incarnate upon the earth----


:)

Very profound.... wonderful teaching this man/ god-man/ had.

Question: Was he the great exception or the great example?

We are asked to be like him not fall at his feet and worship him. In my personal prayer life I acknowlede him only because I know he is still alive and powerful (ascended back to the right hand of God). But Jesus always gave credit to The Father.. I think he was the great example.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#101    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:07 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 07 March 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Who is asking you to accept the Bible as your idol?  I certainly am not.

The thing is, if you have any question about whether Jesus's teachings are garbled then why would you "revere" him?  Based on what?
I think I made I quite clear I revere the character...."Fact or fiction" ;)

I also consider the boy from the tekevision show "touch" a wonderful teacher potentially even divinly inspired.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#102    SpiritWriter

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:51 PM

The whole reason for Jesus coming was to hang on that cross. To eliminate any interferance for anyone at all coming to know God. There is nothing seperating us at all from God the Father if we just believe! I think the virgin birth is significant.. to me it symbologizes the feminine form of God that has been extracted from the scriptures. Many legends tell of this virgin goddess (or mother goddess who bore God" . yes legends are combined to tell the story but that doesn't make it not true. God does repeat himself. The purpose is for us to come to him - to be open and therefore transformed in the spirit, being submitted to righteousness and the holy spirit that guides us - our promised counselor. The mystery is too large to be told in a way that all would understand, so its told in many ways leading to confusion and is why barely one (with his own thinking) can agree on anything. Are we wrong because we dont agree with someone else? Is everyone else wrong who cant see like we do? Is everyone on the earth wrong, except for knowing who they are and where they are at the present moment? Or is everyone wrong who doesn't agree with the bible? (Back to point lol)


The main thing is that people are hurting in the world and need healing. Some dont know it, some do. The spirit of the Lord / God / The Christ, as has already been mentioned, does move and have its way among men. I am of the train of thought that we are all where we need to be, we will understand miraculous power when it comes over us, (and when we seek after it), that we are each on a journey and God is big enough to tell each of us individually a story (our life and spiritual journey) that wouldnt be understood in whole by any other man, but thats not to say we shouldnt share with each other or that we can't learn from one another. There are extreme positions... totally sold out to the bible, a fire and hell, brimstone breathing Christian extremist ...or a straight up persecuter of the Jews... all extremes views could be totally "wrong" but within the gamut there is "truth",  but it is a truth you cant put your finger on and it is never the truth in full. and throughout the struggle of weaving through these psychological concepts we come into our spiritual beings or understanding our present consciousnesses (sp?). Perhaps there is a right and a wrong way (direction), are you gaining on heaven or hell. Jesus said you are either hot or cold, lukewarm is not an option...

When I first got saved I remember thinking, this is it! I found the meaning of everything and know I just have to walk it out. I was wrong. But IT was still RIGHT and I still have to walk it out.

I told myself not to reply to anything on this site today and I failed lol, but ill keep trying.. there were some other comments I saw that I wanted to reply to but ill wait for another day.

Peace be blessed

:)

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#103    IamsSon

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:00 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 07 March 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

I think I made I quite clear I revere the character...."Fact or fiction" ;)

I also consider the boy from the tekevision show "touch" a wonderful teacher potentially even divinly inspired.
But who is the character?  What are you revering?

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#104    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:55 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 07 March 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

But who is the character?  What are you revering?
A character in a set of books.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#105    CrimsonKing

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:23 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 07 March 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:


My heart and thoughts lie closer to my own ancestors beleifs here in north america. Most native American holy men understood that the traditional stories held far more meaning than the literal truth of the words. That's why they never understood the dogma of other religions. Even today if you talk to a peiute, hopie holy, or any holy  man, their traditional stories are for their people alone and are not transposed onto other cultures. Some people see the illogic behind us, others know that it is about respect.

This is where a lot of my beliefs come from,my dads side is shawnee.

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu




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