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how do you explain shared experiences?


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#46    SpiritWriter

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:34 PM

View Postscowl, on 09 April 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:



This place right here is the very last place you'll find a local "expert".

Do these people have no friends or family they can talk to? They never say they've talked to anyone about their experiences.

When I started waking up with hallucinations, I went to a shrink who referred me to a sleep disorder specialist who solved my problem. If this had happened thirty years later, I'd probably have a blog talking about my experiences with ghosts or aliens.

In a lot of cases people dont have friends and family they can talk to, especially about these matters.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#47    SpiritWriter

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:42 PM

View Postscowl, on 08 April 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:



I just don't respond to the tales from first-time posters. They usually sound like something they saw in a cheap horror movie, they usually end with a desperate plea for help because this is destroying their lives (then what the **** are you doing asking for help from strangers on the ****ing Internet???), and they almost never respond when you ask for more information.

I picture a teenage kid smirking and thinking, "I bet those smartypants skeptics won't have an explanation for this..."

I think some first time posters may be under the impression this is a safe place to talk about thier experiences and may even be excited they finally have a platform to share. But they are easily discouraged especially after being mocked and torn down. They may have no one at all to talk to anywhere and thier experience here may just shut them up forever.... these experiences when truly experienced are very vulnerable subjects I would think and close to a persons heart because it is an object of faith, a link to identifying ones own sanity, and probably a long kept deep secret...



The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#48    Frank Merton

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:43 PM

It may be that they are better off not talking about them.  The retelling will enlarge the incident in the person's mind and a skeptical reception will generate defensiveness while a symphathetic reception will generate dependence.

At least this is what I find happens to me when I talk about all the ghosts (or whatever they are) that I encounter a few times a year.  I am never sure enough to be strongly defensive, and I am always upset.  Not a good time for quiet intellectual consideration of possibilities and probabilities.  Best to just mark it down as interesting, unexplained, probably unexplainable, and forget it.


#49    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 09 April 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

I think some first time posters may be under the impression this is a safe place to talk about thier experiences and may even be excited they finally have a platform to share. But they are easily discouraged especially after being mocked and torn down. They may have no one at all to talk to anywhere and thier experience here may just shut them up forever.... these experiences when truly experienced are very vulnerable subjects I would think and close to a persons heart because it is an object of faith, a link to identifying ones own sanity, and probably a long kept deep secret...

This completely. Gotta admit, I wasn't expecting some of the ridicule I received when I first came here. Sure, I expected some, it's life but some I could see could be off putting to others. Fortunately, I have a thick skin myself :D but I've seen some first post replies here by some people that are downright disrespectful and insensitive. I, for one, always want to explore rational explanations first and there's a way of saying that without utterly ridiculing somebody off the bat, telling them they have mental problems, their story sounds made up etc.

I wasn't suggesting for a moment you could find an "expert" here but that doesn't mean others might not think otherwise. My family is the last people I wanted to talk to about my experiences when I was younger. Ridicule from a stranger is one thing but potentially getting it from your loved ones, is quite another.

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe, 09 April 2013 - 07:27 PM.

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#50    Mabon

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:41 PM

A shared experience depends on the group sharing the experience.
Someone stated earlier that seeing lights in the sky would be UFOs to UFO enthusiast or ORBs to ghost enthusiasts etc. However, I think that there is something that all should be aware of and Frank pointed the way to it, FEAR.
Group A sees something and it causes them fear and they need to identify it to be able to determine what to do.  If the group expected to see lights in the air and conclude it's a (UFO, ghost fill in the blank) they have no unknown fear, they have defined the fear/threat and will act accordingly.

Group B sees something they aren't looking for and it causes them fear. If you are with a group who isn't looking for X and see something fear is the first thing the group needs to contend with. A great way to get a handle on fear is to define what it is your group is afraid of. People will voice their opinion/ideas and a soon a majority of the group will start to accept the most popular opinion as being the answer.
.
Group C sees something and it causes them fear but they don't need to identify it to conquer their fear, so they investigate to determine what it is. If fear can be conquered without the need to identify X first then a skeptical process of elimination can take place to determine what it is rather than assuming what it is.

Sometimes no answer can be reached and this can cause the most problems for people who can't conquer the fear of not knowing or an unresolved event. Some people are terrified of saying "I don't know," and they'd rather make an answer fit than not have an answer.

When people post stories of experiences they've had and they haven't reached a decision on what it is, you'll often find people trying very hard to convince them what they have seen rather than someone saying "I don't know". This comes from both sides of the fence. People are often too determined to be 'right' rather than factual.

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#51    acute

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:55 PM

There is one big problem with shared experiences: they get discussed.
If five people get chased by an 8-feet-tall bigfoot, there is no way they won't talk about it to each other, and bang goes your 'proof'!


#52    scowl

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:00 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 09 April 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

In a lot of cases people dont have friends and family they can talk to, especially about these matters.

It sounds like they already have other problems to deal with.


#53    scowl

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 09 April 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

It may be that they are better off not talking about them.  The retelling will enlarge the incident in the person's mind and a skeptical reception will generate defensiveness while a symphathetic reception will generate dependence.

I'm concerned fools will lead them to wrong conclusions about what they're experiencing and make things worse for them.

I'm glad the Internet didn't exist when I went through my sleep disorder problems. I would have had people telling me which planet my hallucinations were from.


#54    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:06 PM

View Postscowl, on 09 April 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

It sounds like they already have other problems to deal with.

How do you work that one out? It's not exactly an easy subject to talk to people about.

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#55    SpiritWriter

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostMabon, on 09 April 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

A shared experience depends on the group sharing the experience.
Someone stated earlier that seeing lights in the sky would be UFOs to UFO enthusiast or ORBs to ghost enthusiasts etc. However, I think that there is something that all should be aware of and Frank pointed the way to it, FEAR.
Group A sees something and it causes them fear and they need to identify it to be able to determine what to do.  If the group expected to see lights in the air and conclude it's a (UFO, ghost fill in the blank) they have no unknown fear, they have defined the fear/threat and will act accordingly.

Group B sees something they aren't looking for and it causes them fear. If you are with a group who isn't looking for X and see something fear is the first thing the group needs to contend with. A great way to get a handle on fear is to define what it is your group is afraid of. People will voice their opinion/ideas and a soon a majority of the group will start to accept the most popular opinion as being the answer.
.
Group C sees something and it causes them fear but they don't need to identify it to conquer their fear, so they investigate to determine what it is. If fear can be conquered without the need to identify X first then a skeptical process of elimination can take place to determine what it is rather than assuming what it is.

Sometimes no answer can be reached and this can cause the most problems for people who can't conquer the fear of not knowing or an unresolved event. Some people are terrified of saying "I don't know," and they'd rather make an answer fit than not have an answer.

When people post stories of experiences they've had and they haven't reached a decision on what it is, you'll often find people trying very hard to convince them what they have seen rather than someone saying "I don't know". This comes from both sides of the fence. People are often too determined to be 'right' rather than factual.

Mabon.

You can report an experience by being factual, I saw this, I smelled that, I felt (tangible, temperature, furry etc) I felt (scared, calm etc.) If it is an apparation of a human form you describe it as such, if it is a light floating around the room you describe it as such, if objects are moving on their own, say that. These are not guesses at what happened, these are what was witnessed, these tangible pieces are not the aspect that need interpreting. The more experience, including what is gained in discussion will help you as a person identify your own personal beliefs of what these things are, or have the potential to be.

View Postscowl, on 09 April 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:



It sounds like they already have other problems to deal with.

Ok....

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#56    coldethyl

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:13 PM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 09 April 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

How do you work that one out? It's not exactly an easy subject to talk to people about.

What I get from what scowl is saying is that a person has a problematic life if they don't have one person in their life they feel comfortable they feel like they can confide in about anything.  For instance, my son at a young age described to me the classic symptoms of ocd (intrusive thoughts, etc) and I knew it was hard for him, but he was able to come to me about it.  He was able to do that because I have ocd and have talked to both my kids about various things that they might experience.  Everyone should have someone in their lives that cares that much about them.  They should feel like they can say anything and not be ridiculed no matter what the subject matter.  If they have to resort to virtual people it is IMO a bit sad.

I try to explain things logically to people, SP, etc. and just get irritated when something that is so simple as SP gets taken into the realm of demonic possesion by post three.  Impressionable kids who want to feel special and don't get that feeling at home are going to jump on that like white on rice and then they're not going to listen to anything sensible at all.  That's when the embellishment starts IMO.  More and more attention they aren't getting at home but can get from here and we're off on the same old versus.


#57    scowl

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:39 AM

View Postcoldethyl, on 09 April 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

What I get from what scowl is saying is that a person has a problematic life if they don't have one person in their life they feel comfortable they feel like they can confide in about anything.

Exactly. I can't imagine anyone more fragile than someone who has absolutely no friends or family to talk to. A person in that position must wonder how they got there.

When I went through my most horrifying sleep hallucinations, fortunately I was in college and every campus (as far as I know) has psychiatric care for students. I was then just one more doctor away from finding what was happening to me. I didn't discuss this with friends or family because they were not professionals who could help me. I told them after I had been through a sleep study and they found out what was going on.

I am very happy that I had gotten a correct medical diagnosis instead of asking strangers what they thought might be happening to me.


#58    SpiritWriter

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:57 AM

I am very happy that God delivered me from my night terrors.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#59    Mabon

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:18 AM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 09 April 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

You can report an experience by being factual, I saw this, I smelled that, I felt (tangible, temperature, furry etc) I felt (scared, calm etc.) If it is an apparation of a human form you describe it as such, if it is a light floating around the room you describe it as such, if objects are moving on their own, say that. These are not guesses at what happened, these are what was witnessed, these tangible pieces are not the aspect that need interpreting. The more experience, including what is gained in discussion will help you as a person identify your own personal beliefs of what these things are, or have the potential to be.


Right! An individual when reporting/recording an event should include: who, what, when, where, time, drunk/high, sober, age, asleep, awake, mood anything factual. Belief however isn't factual and therefore not always accurate. Belief is subjecting facts to an interpretation by an individual who holds those beliefs.

Example: You like cheese, I don't. You think cheese adds greatness to every food, where I think it doesn't. These are beliefs and neither one is a fact, It's a matter of taste or belief and is only true for the person who holds it. The two facts are cheese exists and we disagree about cheese. Cheese existing isn't open to interpretation, the like or dislike is.

Another example: lights in the air seen with the naked eye. If the person/s are afraid and don't check and saw these in a remote location all the facts will still be subject to fear (as described above) and even though the facts point to headlights reflecting off a lake, they may believe it was spirits because they were too afraid to investigate it fully. What drove that fear is as individual as each person but if you can't get beyond it the most accurate answer is "I don't know" rather than spirits.


Quote

I try to explain things logically to people, SP, etc. and just get irritated when something that is so simple as SP gets taken into the realm of demonic possesion by post three.  Impressionable kids who want to feel special and don't get that feeling at home are going to jump on that like white on rice and then they're not going to listen to anything sensible at all.  That's when the embellishment starts IMO.  More and more attention they aren't getting at home but can get from here and we're off on the same old versus.
Cold Ethyl.

I feel your pain Ethyl. The aspect that most people who recognize SP symptoms fail to consider is the fear that SP episodes evoke. The fear is so real to the individual and evokes such strong emotions that it colors all the other evidence. What may seem like a person having a tantrum/reaction (NO! It really wuz a demonz!) may be someone who can't get past the fear of the event to look logically at the event. This may be why the demonic possession/it's demon aspect answer is going to be the one they latch on to and eventually will not be moved from. Especially, when it is prejudiced by a belief system. Their fear is real, I don't doubt that and they had an experience that is outside of their average life but instead of being objective they are too tied to the fear both of the event and of demons. That is if they aren't seeking attention, or have other agendas/issues.


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One need not be a chamber to be haunted;
One need not be a house;
The brain has corridors surpassing
Material place.  ~ Emily Dickinson


#60    Frank Merton

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:36 AM

Ghosts are pretty much the only outre experience people have that I think may have some reality to them, and even then I doubt they are the usually spirits of dead people.

Well, I should qualify that: all such experiences except those made up are "real" to the person having them, but generally what is behind them is far more mundane than we guess.





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