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Welfare pays better then min. in most states


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#31    aztek

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:45 PM

lol, so capitalism doesn't work, well neither does the socialism, or we would not see millions come to capitalistic usa, from socialist countries, or to be precise former socialist countries.

Edited by aztek, 09 March 2013 - 11:45 PM.

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#32    Br Cornelius

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:56 PM

View Postaztek, on 09 March 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

lol, so capitalism doesn't work, well neither does the socialism, or we would not see millions come to capitalistic usa, from socialist countries, or to be precise former socialist countries.
How perceptive of you to spot that a flawed system and its flawed response both failed to work out.
The flaw lies deeper than both ideologies.

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#33    Jeremiah65

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 12:05 AM

The answer is quite simple and yet cloaked in layers upon layers of stupid crap....

Do you need the state to help you?  Do you need a food and/or utility card?  Then here is what needs to happen...can happen.

We need to fix some bridges and some damns...want a check?...show up for work.  Don't want to work?....then you need a special disclaimer as to why....(single mothers)...if you cannot work and cannot provide a reason why not....you get nothing...zero....

We can do what needs to be done if we just do it.  There are those that do not want to work and laugh at those that do...make it hard for them to do that...

There are those that want to work and cannot....well we have tons of municipal things that need to be done...pay them to do it.

I have szero patience for this conversation...we all know we have things that need to be done.  If you want a GOV check, you need to be ready to do those things...or else...nothing. No work...no check....

Get over your "oh the babies" bullsh!t....the parents need to work or everyone is institutionalized...period....

You work...you eat...no work....no food....get used to that ideal cause it is coming soon to a region near you....

Edited by Jeremiah65, 10 March 2013 - 12:07 AM.

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#34    Gromdor

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 12:20 AM

Kinda need jobs to do the work thing and if the government started fixing bridges and roads without the contractors then a whole lot of people will start screaming socialism.


#35    Sakari

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 12:59 AM

View PostJeremiah65, on 10 March 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

The answer is quite simple and yet cloaked in layers upon layers of stupid crap....

Do you need the state to help you?  Do you need a food and/or utility card?  Then here is what needs to happen...can happen.

We need to fix some bridges and some damns...want a check?...show up for work.  Don't want to work?....then you need a special disclaimer as to why....(single mothers)...if you cannot work and cannot provide a reason why not....you get nothing...zero....

We can do what needs to be done if we just do it.  There are those that do not want to work and laugh at those that do...make it hard for them to do that...

There are those that want to work and cannot....well we have tons of municipal things that need to be done...pay them to do it.

I have szero patience for this conversation...we all know we have things that need to be done.  If you want a GOV check, you need to be ready to do those things...or else...nothing. No work...no check....

Get over your "oh the babies" bullsh!t....the parents need to work or everyone is institutionalized...period....

You work...you eat...no work....no food....get used to that ideal cause it is coming soon to a region near you....

View PostGromdor, on 10 March 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

Kinda need jobs to do the work thing and if the government started fixing bridges and roads without the contractors then a whole lot of people will start screaming socialism.





The fixing bridges and roads has come and gone.

How do I know?

I moved to Oregon to work on the McColough bridge. Cathodic protection. Funded by the Fed grant, to States. We completed one haf of the bridge ( South side ). ODOT is out of money and can not do the other half. Pistol river is now getting cathodic protection, as that job is much less.




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edit to add :   Jobs like these are considered " prevailing wage " jobs. ( google it )......The jobs I did were anywhere from $41.00 a hour to $48.00 a hour pay. Those jobs at any " normal " construction place would be $14.00 to $ 17.00 a hour, if you are lucky.

This is your tax dollars being spent badly, and the Government letting it happen. That is a lot of money that could go elsewhere. Now, think about how many " prevailing wage " Government jobs are out there right now, I guarantee a lot of them.

Edited by Sakari, 10 March 2013 - 01:03 AM.

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#36    Gromdor

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 01:18 AM

Prevailing wage is the average pay counting benefits in a given area.  It is suppossed to include the cost of health insurance, retirement, etc.  Not all of those benefits are visible on the check as well.  Health insurance and retirement are usually paid for by the employer so they can claim a tax benefit from it.  So that 41-48$ could be 14-17$ on the paycheck with the rest being benefits.   A contractor that normally doesn't provide any benefits and pockets the difference in pay is actually forced to pay the difference on "prevailing wage" jobs.  You would be surprised at what contractors bill people.  My roommate in college worked for mediacom as a installer. They paid him 10$ an hour but was billing him to corporate customers for 100$ an hour.  My total price is around 42$ an hour with benefits and my contactor bills me out at 60$-70$.   You didn't think that your boss sold your labor at cost, did you?


#37    ninjadude

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 01:44 AM

View PostSakari, on 09 March 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Total Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than an $8 per hour job: 40
Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than a $12 per hour job: 7
Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than the average salary of a U.S. Teacher: 9

So this is a direct argument for raising the minimum wage.

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#38    Sakari

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 03:19 AM

View PostGromdor, on 10 March 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Prevailing wage is the average pay counting benefits in a given area.  It is suppossed to include the cost of health insurance, retirement, etc.  Not all of those benefits are visible on the check as well.  Health insurance and retirement are usually paid for by the employer so they can claim a tax benefit from it.  So that 41-48$ could be 14-17$ on the paycheck with the rest being benefits.   A contractor that normally doesn't provide any benefits and pockets the difference in pay is actually forced to pay the difference on "prevailing wage" jobs.  You would be surprised at what contractors bill people.  My roommate in college worked for mediacom as a installer. They paid him 10$ an hour but was billing him to corporate customers for 100$ an hour.  My total price is around 42$ an hour with benefits and my contactor bills me out at 60$-70$.   You didn't think that your boss sold your labor at cost, did you?


Well, lets say at the end a lawsuit was settled. And, the company that did the cathodic part will never do a job in Oregon again. That is from a ODOT higher up.

As for how it works. Each job is assigned a prevailing wage pay, from clean up to welding. Every hour is documented by each employee of what they did for the day. The State, or Fed is billed for the labor costs. The employer makes more, as the labor costs were in the bid. Employers do not have a choice, and the pay is mandated by law, so no, they can not charge more to the State or to the Feds when it comes to the labor pay.

As for no insurance or retirement, that extra $30.00 a hour was well over what I paid for insurance and retirement. Sorry, a extra $340.00 a day is enough for a month of insurance alone.

Prevailing wage is a rip off to tax payers, I sure loved the paychecks, but I now know what it really is.




View Postninjadude, on 10 March 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

So this is a direct argument for raising the minimum wage.


Exactly.

Edited by Sakari, 10 March 2013 - 03:23 AM.

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#39    Gromdor

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 04:53 AM

Sorry if I was a bit confusing, the amounts I stated for my college roommate and I were what the companies typically charged its customers not the prevailing wage rate.  Another example that you could easily go check on would be an auto mechanic.  They bill you for 50-60$ an hour for labor but don't pay their mechanics that rate.  Prevailing wage jobs have the price set as the average by the government as you stated.  The whole point of prevailing wage is to take the price of labor and benefits out of the equation of getting the job done, the side effect being that the wages have to be paid to the worker instead of pocketed by the company as cost of labor.
  I am kind of curious on what the lawsuit was about.  It shouldn't be about the price of labor because that was already set at a fixed amount because of the prevailing wage.


#40    Gromdor

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:02 AM

You also have to realize that this is the reported industry average.  Workers in Oregon apparently make 41-48$ an hour on average doing that particular job.  That number might be skewed a little high because companies that under cut on labor don't generally report their rates because that would lower the industry average and the advantage they have of cheaper labor would disappear.


#41    AsteroidX

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:44 AM

Quote

Workers in Oregon apparently make 41-48$

Hogwash. ODOT is a Government job. It is one of the better jobs in Oregon however......They also use Prison labor whenever they can. Which is $1.15 an hour.

Edited by AsteroidX, 10 March 2013 - 05:48 AM.


#42    Gromdor

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 06:41 AM

Hey, don't shoot the messenger.  I am just explaining what prevailing wages are using the numbers that Sakari provided.  They are similiar to Iowa though, so I believe his numbers to be true. And remember that 41-48$ an hour might actually be 14-17$ on the check with the additional expense being benefits, training, etc.   The number is what companies provide the government as to the expense of labor per hour.  My company for example bills me at 70$. Pays 45$ for my retirement, insurance, wages, Osha training classes, etc.  What I get on the check is 25$.  The 45$ is what it reports to the government as my wage for the purposes of determining prevailing wage.

As for the prevailing wage itself.  The government takes the average and then says you have to pay your worker the average pay either in wages or benefits.  For companies that don't do benefits this translates into a straight pay raise. So if someone were to do my job and my pay was the prevailing wage, they would get paid 45$ an hour.

Edited by Gromdor, 10 March 2013 - 06:51 AM.


#43    Sakari

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 06:48 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 10 March 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Hogwash. ODOT is a Government job. It is one of the better jobs in Oregon however......They also use Prison labor whenever they can. Which is $1.15 an hour.



Asteroid, I made that pay, on a prevailing wage job. That is not even close to what Oregon wages are. Not sure if you read everything.

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#44    AsteroidX

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 06:50 AM

Dont get me wrong ODOT is a great job. One of the few and Im just mentioning they outsource alot of there contract work which is good for the contract workers as they get prevailing wage instead of there measley $12 for cement work. So yeah Ive heard its cushey.

But if your a vetted ODOT employee your gonna be getting PERS and the whole package. Just its a Government job which kinda disqualifies it from the average Joes problems.

Its just I live in Oregon and I know what the average workers are getting around here and I know theres a huge disparity between the State workers and the Public sector. But it was cool Wallmart offered to hire returning vets as its so hard to fond a job in the first place.  :tu:

Yes Sakari it took me a moment to figure out what you said.


#45    Sakari

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 07:05 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 10 March 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Dont get me wrong ODOT is a great job. One of the few and Im just mentioning they outsource alot of there contract work which is good for the contract workers as they get prevailing wage instead of there measley $12 for cement work. So yeah Ive heard its cushey.

But if your a vetted ODOT employee your gonna be getting PERS and the whole package. Just its a Government job which kinda disqualifies it from the average Joes problems.

Its just I live in Oregon and I know what the average workers are getting around here and I know theres a huge disparity between the State workers and the Public sector. But it was cool Wallmart offered to hire returning vets as its so hard to fond a job in the first place.  :tu:

Yes Sakari it took me a moment to figure out what you said.


ODOT over saw the work, as it was a State Highway bridge job. We did not work for ODOT. They did the inspections, and made sure specs were correct. They do not get near that pay. I do wish I worked for ODOT though :)

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