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Early Christians weren’t persecuted

persecuted romans jesus christians

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#46    Mr Walker

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:43 PM

View Posteight bits, on 17 May 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Mr Walker

It is obvious that you and I have a fundamental disagreement about the criteria for justifiable homicide. This severly limits the scope of useful further discussion between us. We have each had our say, and there the matter will rest.

Sorry but i was not arguing that homicide was justifiable.

I was arguing that the persecution of the early christians was quite possibly real and historical. That does not justify their own behaviour but it provides a more sympathetic rationale for it.. Human nature is what it is. Followers of christ SHOULD do and act better but comparatively few ever have.

My point was that the christians acted not because of propaganda but because of their  understanding of how early christians had been treated, and it is more than conceivable that those persecutions were very real.

While their behaviour was wrong by our standards (but very normal by the standards of the day) it is important to get right their motivations. To do something from genuine hurt, fear, "revenge" or retribution etc. is  a different motivation from doing something for a reason you know is a lie just to get rid of your enemies. Not any more right, but different .

In any case, whatever motivations there were, society was very different  at the time Criminals and others were put to death in stadia or on public display. Moralities ethics and justice were different for ALL; christians and others.

I suspect that, as up until quite recently, biblical teachings/interpretations back then, streched more towards justice and punishmnent than mercy and forgiveness. But so did secular law and attitude.

I assume you mean homicide  in the sense of illegal killing. Until last century capital punishment was the norm throughout the world for many crimes. In some countries it still is.

I DO believe that  capital punishment, within a democratic society offering good legal procedures, is a form of justifiable homicide i appreciate many others disagree. My views are based on long standing philosophical, ethical and moral, considerations without any 'taint" of religious belief informing them.

Christians are no more "entitled" to execute or persecute others on the basis of their beliefs than any other human is. Arguably they should be LESS inclined to do so, even while "rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesars" (and law,, order and punishment is and should be the role of government not religion.)

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#47    eight bits

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:43 AM

Quote

I was arguing that the persecution of the early christians was quite possibly real and historical.

Despite the OP's lurid title, so does Professor Moss. I pointed that out pages ago. You and I would seem to be in accord about that.

As to those things where we are in disaccord, as I mentioned, we have each had our say. I am leaving those matters there.

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#48    Frank Merton

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:34 AM

The persecution of the early Christians was real and historical and massively exaggerated.


#49    and then

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 11 March 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Churches in Europe empty because people do not believe at all, or are tired of the arcaness and scandals. 100 years ago practically everybody went to church, some out of fear of censure if they were not seen to actively worship. 200 years earlier, skeptics and atheists would never have admitted to this and went to church out of fear of death. We have outgrown this barbarity and many pay only lip service to church, attending only for weddings and funerals. So, what precisely is it that is "Finished" How is it that paganism returns, slowly I admit, if this Jesus project is completed........,

Edit for a general point that the incidences of persecutioin of early Christians pale into insignificance when compared to what happened to pagans who did not want this new religion when it came to power in Rome. Also the destruction of cultures thousands of years in the making. More "witches" were murdered in Europe than any number of Christian "Martyrs". These sob tales of poor little Christuans being beaten by the big baddy pagans is a foul distortion of reality. In recent times South Sea islanders have been convert by missionaries, told that their ancestor worship was devil worship, and as a consequence suicide rates have risen as people despair that their culture is destroyed by the missionaries with the fixed grins on their face and their "Have a nice day"
Christ Himself finished this struggle between good and evil when he died and rose again.  I have no doubt that you think this is folly as a belief - not very original but you can believe as you like, as can I.  One of the sad (for me) things I believe is that those who willfully reject Christ's message will be lost and miss out on the next step of the great journey.  I don't know what hell is but I think maybe it is about being conscious of remorse.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#50    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 12:27 PM

View Postand then, on 18 May 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Christ Himself finished this struggle between good and evil when he died and rose again.  I have no doubt that you think this is folly as a belief - not very original but you can believe as you like, as can I.  One of the sad (for me) things I believe is that those who willfully reject Christ's message will be lost and miss out on the next step of the great journey.  I don't know what hell is but I think maybe it is about being conscious of remorse.
Yes, but this affair about Christ excludes the countless millions who lived BC, and the countless millions who lived without any knowledge of this religion since. Let us for the sake of argument say that there really are souls, then where are all those now dead who lived without any knowledge of this one Levantine religion? they all in Hell? they in purgatory? Though it seems that this concept has been abandoned. Oh so powerful of man to decide that part of the "afterlife" no longer exists. Evidence there that it is all man made, not from any god.


#51    AlasBabylon

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:46 PM

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You don't have to go back to pagan Rome to find Christian martyrs...
millions of Christians have been murdered for their faith in the past century.

These are God's Holy Martyrs of the fifth seal... whose blood cries out for justice.


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