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time is relative.


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#46    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 April 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Ah but we don't move into the future: we stay in the present.

Ah, but the present is always moving, and takes us along with it.

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#47    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:53 PM

That is one possible interpretation.  I think what is happening is that time is an illusion brought about by change.  There just is what is.


#48    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:10 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 April 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

That is one possible interpretation.  I think what is happening is that time is an illusion brought about by change.  There just is what is.
Could we then also say, 'our position on the earth is an illusion brought about by change.  There just is what is.'?  I was at home 'earlier' and am now at work; the statement, 'I am now 15 miles away from my former position at home', is categorically different than '3.5 hours have elapsed since I was last at home'?

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#49    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:23 PM

I know where you are going, I think.  Is the passage of time a different sort of motion that movement in space.  Of course the two are interconnected in ways I don't understand, so I'm out of my depth.  It is just that time as a dimension is a very different thing than space as dimensions.  We can expend energy to move in space, the proposed movment in time requires no energy expenditure and in fact cannot be controlled.

So I do not perceive movement in time; I perceive change -- movement in space -- but we remain in the present.  It's a chessboard with each object moving in accordance to its nature -- physics -- from moment to moment, but the chessboard is still the chessboard.


#50    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:07 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 April 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

So I do not perceive movement in time; I perceive change -- movement in space -- but we remain in the present.  It's a chessboard with each object moving in accordance to its nature -- physics -- from moment to moment, but the chessboard is still the chessboard.

It seems like we perceive movement in time the same way we perceive movement in space, I may not be where I formerly was, but I am clearly not 'when' I formerly was either.  As far as remaining 'in the present', couldn't we say that that's equivalent to, 'we remain 'here''?  I'm always 'here', but my 'here' changes just as 'the present' does; the 'present' doesn't seem to be any more fixed than 'here' is, outside of the fact that we personally have some control over where 'here' is for us.  

I wonder how this works also looking at objects a great distance away.  We see stars as they were in the past, not as they are in 'the present', so I'm not sure how that's possible if there is only 'the present'.  I had always thought that time is treated as 'a dimension' by physics (thus the word, 'spacetime' I think) and that other dimensions may exist, but have no understanding of how that works.

(And don't get me wrong Frank, I'm no expert either, I'm not even sure I disagree with you; just trying to see if I can challenge it and what the repercussions are, if any, if viewing time this way)

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#51    White Crane Feather

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:53 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 03 April 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:



It seems like we perceive movement in time the same way we perceive movement in space, I may not be where I formerly was, but I am clearly not 'when' I formerly was either.  As far as remaining 'in the present', couldn't we say that that's equivalent to, 'we remain 'here''?  I'm always 'here', but my 'here' changes just as 'the present' does; the 'present' doesn't seem to be any more fixed than 'here' is, outside of the fact that we personally have some control over where 'here' is for us.  

I wonder how this works also looking at objects a great distance away.  We see stars as they were in the past, not as they are in 'the present', so I'm not sure how that's possible if there is only 'the present'.  I had always thought that time is treated as 'a dimension' by physics (thus the word, 'spacetime' I think) and that other dimensions may exist, but have no understanding of how that works.

(And don't get me wrong Frank, I'm no expert either, I'm not even sure I disagree with you; just trying to see if I can challenge it and what the repercussions are, if any, if viewing time this way)
It's a simple function of the speed of light. You are not seeing the star as it was in the past, you are preceiving the wavelengths of light as they are now only carrying the information and record of what the star was like in the past. The star has changed and moved on, and if you wait you will see that information aswell.

It's not any different than seeing a flash of lightning and then waiting for the thunder. The conductivity of air to carry sound waves is simply slower than the conductivity of space to carry light.

The illusion of time is what frank said. It's simply a record of change. If you did not have a memory you could not experience time.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#52    White Crane Feather

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:02 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 April 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I know where you are going, I think.  Is the passage of time a different sort of motion that movement in space.  Of course the two are interconnected in ways I don't understand, so I'm out of my depth.  It is just that time as a dimension is a very different thing than space as dimensions.  We can expend energy to move in space, the proposed movment in time requires no energy expenditure and in fact cannot be controlled.

So I do not perceive movement in time; I perceive change -- movement in space -- but we remain in the present.  It's a chessboard with each object moving in accordance to its nature -- physics -- from moment to moment, but the chessboard is still the chessboard.
I don't think you are out of your depth frank. You are dead on. a ticking clock is merely moving energy about in space. There needs to be no dimension outside of perception for this to happen only the current special dimensions  and physics that we are aware of. Its easily seen in the effects of realativity because the top speed of the energy moving about is fixed.  A moveing ticking clock relative to another  is using up some of the conductivity of space for its internal signals to move about and make it tik, therefore it must apear to run slower than the other.  That's one way to look at it anyway.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#53    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:19 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 04 April 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

It's a simple function of the speed of light. You are not seeing the star as it was in the past, you are preceiving the wavelengths of light as they are now only carrying the information and record of what the star was like in the past. The star has changed and moved on, and if you wait you will see that information aswell.

Interesting.  I am struggling with your second sentence, 'perceiving the wavelengths of light as they are now carrying the information and record of what the star was like in the past' is what I, and I thought everyone, means by 'seeing the star as it was in the past'.  I am so far beyond any expertise here that I'm sure my questions are banal, but in what specific way is 'time is an illusion' correct when in your explanation you just used the words 'now' and 'the past'?  To put it another way, can we fill in this sentence:  "time is an illusion because it's just a 'record of change', when many people actually mistakenly believe it to be 'real' because they think time is 'x'".  What is 'x'?

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#54    StarMountainKid

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:06 PM

The popular view around here seems to be that time as dimension does not exist, there is only change in the configuration of space. The past is only memory, and likewise the future does not exist because we can't be conscious of it.  Our consciousness is only aware of the present.

I think our consciousness is being selective in this matter. It would be detrimental to our survival if we were conscious of the past and the future as well as conscious of our present moment. Does this selective consciousness of ours prove that the past and future do not exist?

I take the view that all moments of space-time do exist. I think many physicists would agree with me from some of the books I've read, though there is the opposing view as well. If this present moment is a flash that disappears as soon as it happens (as it seems to our consciousness anyway), I think we must still consider time as something real. I say this because

Is there an interval that creates the present moment or is there no time-like interval at all? Is change smooth or is change a series of quantum jumps at the smallest scale (the Planck scale)?

If this interval is real (Planck time) then I would consider time to exist as this interval of change to the configuration of space. In this sense, time allows for change in space. If there were no Planck-time interval, space would remain static. The Plank-time interval (time) allows for change to occur in the quantum scale.

I don't want to make this post too long, so I'll stop here.

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#55    White Crane Feather

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 04 April 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:



Interesting.  I am struggling with your second sentence, 'perceiving the wavelengths of light as they are now carrying the information and record of what the star was like in the past' is what I, and I thought everyone, means by 'seeing the star as it was in the past'.  I am so far beyond any expertise here that I'm sure my questions are banal, but in what specific way is 'time is an illusion' correct when in your explanation you just used the words 'now' and 'the past'?  To put it another way, can we fill in this sentence:  "time is an illusion because it's just a 'record of change', when many people actually mistakenly believe it to be 'real' because they think time is 'x'".  What is 'x'?
We can still talk about an illusion and the terms associated with it. We are beings built upon our memories the past seems very real so we have a term for it. Really it's just an organization of the universe in a different puzzle configuration than it is now and we have a memory of part of that configuration. That's just a hell of a lot more to say than "the past". The past certainly existed, but like everything else it is only information. We need not a dimension or an enabler for the past to change in to the present other than the laws of physics as they are... Momentum...conductivity etc etc.

When you 'see' that star you are experiencing information recorded into the light. You are actually experiencing the light.. Not the star. The star has changed already it could have undergone sepernova already and you would not know about it.

Example: your friend writes you a note to meet you for lunch in 2 hours and sends it via bike carrier service. Your office is just down the street, she expects the message to get to you very fast, so two hours has roughly  the same meaning. The currier dosnt realize its time sensitive and stops to talk to a cute girl for an hour then delivers the message. You miss your lunch date because your perception of two hours was different than your friends caused by the time elapsed by irresponsible currier. Why? You were not preceiving your friends actual communication, you were simply precieving written material ( a record) of her actual message.

I think I made that more complicated than it needed to be. The point is that the light of the star is simply carrying a record of the actual star. It's a memory in the light. In reality you and the star are only interacting through encoded information. The dimension of time is simply a way for us to coordinate different configurations of the universe. Some of which we have control over.

Think of a rubix cube. It changes with two dimensions. The relationship of the colors on the cube is 'time'. It's not another dimension persay in the cube but it records different configurations of the cube related to dynamics of those interacting peices in two dimensions.

The two axis of the cube = dimension
Each spot under the colered tape = space
The colored tape = matter
The realation ship of the colors = time

This is why we call it Spacetime, and we call the concept realativity. Time is not a thing any more than "unkle" is a thing. It's simply a word to describe a relationship we have with other configurations of the universe.

Edited by Seeker79, 04 April 2013 - 07:24 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#56    White Crane Feather

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 04 April 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

The popular view around here seems to be that time as dimension does not exist, there is only change in the configuration of space. The past is only memory, and likewise the future does not exist because we can't be conscious of it.  Our consciousness is only aware of the present.

I think our consciousness is being selective in this matter. It would be detrimental to our survival if we were conscious of the past and the future as well as conscious of our present moment. Does this selective consciousness of ours prove that the past and future do not exist?

I take the view that all moments of space-time do exist. I think many physicists would agree with me from some of the books I've read, though there is the opposing view as well. If this present moment is a flash that disappears as soon as it happens (as it seems to our consciousness anyway), I think we must still consider time as something real. I say this because

Is there an interval that creates the present moment or is there no time-like interval at all? Is change smooth or is change a series of quantum jumps at the smallest scale (the Planck scale)?

If this interval is real (Planck time) then I would consider time to exist as this interval of change to the configuration of space. In this sense, time allows for change in space. If there were no Planck-time interval, space would remain static. The Plank-time interval (time) allows for change to occur in the quantum scale.

I don't want to make this post too long, so I'll stop here.
The plank-time is simply the interval it takes a piece of information to transit one plank. The smallest possible 'time'. It didn't enable the transit, it merely recorded it relative to other transits or sets of transits.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#57    StarMountainKid

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 01:07 AM

Seeker79 said:

he plank-time is simply the interval it takes a piece of information to transit one plank. The smallest possible 'time'. It didn't enable the transit, it merely recorded it relative to other transits or sets of transits

Well, in a sense this interval of information to transit one Planck unit is time. If time is the interval of change, Planck time is that interval. I understand that this interval of information transit may not be considered a dimension, yet it determines the rate of change. Is not the rate of change time?

Time dilation can be defined by the mechanics of the speed of light and the relative velocity of different reference frames, but the difference in duration of the relative intervals of 'time' is real. If time does not exist, what is operating that is being expressed in these differences in interval duration?

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#58    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:51 AM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 04 April 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

The popular view around here seems to be that time as dimension does not exist, there is only change in the configuration of space. The past is only memory, and likewise the future does not exist because we can't be conscious of it.  Our consciousness is only aware of the present.

I think our consciousness is being selective in this matter. It would be detrimental to our survival if we were conscious of the past and the future as well as conscious of our present moment. Does this selective consciousness of ours prove that the past and future do not exist?
Why would our consciousness even have access to information our immediate environment does not?

Edited by Rlyeh, 05 April 2013 - 06:03 AM.


#59    pitchp

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 06:11 AM

I've only seen time slow down a couple of times. Both times were to a near death experience. The first time it freaked me a little, I was crossing the road with out looking for traffic. That is when time almost slow down to a complete stop. Everything around me was moving slower and slower. The traffic was travelling slower, the people across the road were walking slower to almost a complete stop. Until I looked around and realised there was a bus heading towards me. I took a step back after realising that the bus was going to hit me and kill me. As soon as I took a step back time sped up almost 4x times it's normal speed. I'm assuming it was trying to catch up from what it lost?? In any case from that day on I realise there is something different about this lifetime, also something different about the universe we live in. After so many years have passed I always thought god was trying to save me from every NDE I was having, until I started pushing the limits. Now I'm kinda having second thoughts. Since I have seen some of the past lifetimes I've been living lately, each lifetime I was taking my own life by the time I hit the age of 30. Now it seems someone has caught on to me. Yes I have been taking advantages of lifetimes. I never bothered about the learning process, nor have I bothered to have old age, I don't like pain and suffering. Which ofcourse normally comes with old age. Anyways to cut a long story short, I've now come to realise, that god is not saving me at all. God is trying to keep me here as long as possible, or until I learn what I really need to learn. In the beggining of my life I was a skeptic of everything, until i started experiencing these paranormal situations. This is from my point of view, I trully understand most people wouldn't believe what I've just said. But that's my 2cents

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#60    StarMountainKid

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:32 AM

Rlyeh said:

Why would our consciousness even have access to information our immediate environment does not?

This is sort of my point. Our consciousness only has access to our immediate environment. This creates for us our present.
Just because we have no conscious access to the past or to the future does not mean these do not exist.

Also, our consciousness of the duration of the present is determined by the capacity of our brain to process information. As we know, we can experience inner time to speed up or slow down. I think this demonstrates that the average rate of time elapsing that we experience is psychological in nature. We create the external spatial world within our minds by our senses, and we also create the duration of time elapsing we experience in our minds. We create our present moment.

I don't think we can extrapolate our psychological experience of time to the universe at large. All moments of space-time may exist, external to the awareness of our limited consciousness. Does an event in space-time just disappear or become non-existant in the next moment, or does that event always exist in that moment of time the event occurred?

In a sense the past must always exist as a foundation of the present. If the past moment does not still exist, how can did the present moment evolve from it?

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