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time is relative.


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#91    danielost

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:54 AM

Keep going on the above discussion. I am injoying it.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#92    StarMountainKid

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:50 AM

Mr Walker said:

That does not mean that human writers and philosophers cannot imagine  a differnt scenario. It doesnt mean that human scientists cant test all scenarios. Being apparently existent within a clock does not stop us from searching for a way out or a greater truth and ubnderstandiing. For example we once believed our universe was bounded by the "spherical" limits of expansion after the big bang We now find that there are multiple branes a potential multiverse and that wormholes exist between our local universe and other "universes"  So we already know that the limits of the clock within which we live, are not the limits of our understanding our knowledge or our abilty to transcend So we can see and operate outside the clock as our knowledge grows commensurate withour imagination and ability to extrapolate


I think our knowledge of branes, a potential multi-verse and wormholes and whatever else we may discover are all still within the clock. It may be a very big clock, but all this is only the mechanism of the clock. I think to transcend this we would have to look at the clock from the 'outside'.

There may not be an 'outside', though. There may just exist the mechanism. In this sense, we may be able to understand fully how the mechanism behaves, but still be unable to define what the mechanism is.

Mr Walker said:

The portion of consciousness trying to understand consciousness must lie external to that consciousness it is trying to understand.
Why would you think this to be so?
Rather we exmine the nature of our consciousness using a whole range of tools which exist within the total tool box which is our consciousness. And so neurology and other tools including an understanding of the constructionof human language, allow us to understand, pull apart and reconstruct all the basic elements of that which form our consciousness from; language, conceptual development, to the role of neurons and synapses in the creation and storage of memory and thought


All this is a sort of mechanism of a clock, also. Our experience of consciousness may lie 'outside' the mechanism that creates consciousness. Is our awareness a physical phenomenon, or does it exist not in the realm of physics or the physical universe?

Our feeling of consciousness itself perhaps transcends the mechanism. We can study this mechanism of the brain from 'outside' by our consciousness. However, our consciousness exists within the clock-works of the universe. We have no way of experiencing the universe- clock itself through our consciousness (if there exists something more than just the mechanism, i.e. the clock itself).

Quote

The portion of consciousness trying to understand consciousness must lie external to that consciousness it is trying to understand.


I say this because consciousness is such an ethereal entity. Can our 'feeling' of conscious awareness analyze itself?

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To see reality loose your opinions.

#93    Mr Walker

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:52 AM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 19 April 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

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I think our knowledge of branes, a potential multi-verse and wormholes and whatever else we may discover are all still within the clock. It may be a very big clock, but all this is only the mechanism of the clock. I think to transcend this we would have to look at the clock from the 'outside'.

There may not be an 'outside', though. There may just exist the mechanism. In this sense, we may be able to understand fully how the mechanism behaves, but still be unable to define what the mechanism is.

[/size]

All this is a sort of mechanism of a clock, also. Our experience of consciousness may lie 'outside' the mechanism that creates consciousness. Is our awareness a physical phenomenon, or does it exist not in the realm of physics or the physical universe?

Our feeling of consciousness itself perhaps transcends the mechanism. We can study this mechanism of the brain from 'outside' by our consciousness. However, our consciousness exists within the clock-works of the universe. We have no way of experiencing the universe- clock itself through our consciousness (if there exists something more than just the mechanism, i.e. the clock itself).

[/size]

I say this because consciousness is such an ethereal entity. Can our 'feeling' of conscious awareness analyze itself?

In brief our consciousness is entirely a physical entity. It can be studied, understood, constructed and deconstructed. It can be replicated, damaged, repaired and reproduced. It can be stored transferred etc.

Yes our consciousness can effectively study and come to undestand both the nature and the qualities of itself.

Just because a mind exists within a box does not prevent it from imagining, extrapolating and studying (using logic and other tools) th t which exists outside of the box.

Humans have been doing this for at least 100,000 years. We exist with an ever expanding bubble On the rim of the bubble is the interface between the known and the unknown. Within the bubble is our knowledge base. Outside the bubble is the unknown. But we keep transcending and expanding the bubble, sending feelers out, using data from within to extrapolate without and so on and so the bubble continues to expand swalloing up that which was unknown  and making it known.

Eventually,  the bubble of human knowledge and understanding will encompass everything that is. If we survive long enough, given our nature and abilities this is inevitable.

Ps there is NOTHING etheral or metaphysical about the nature of cosciousness. It is a very physical concrete and real physical function consisting of basic chemical and electrical  physical processes and a system based operation of those elements. Indeed it is very much like a clock. It ticks because the individual components come together in a way to make  (or allow) the whole work. When functioning properly, it can not do anything else but work as it is  evolved to do. Just like a clock

Edited by Mr Walker, 19 April 2013 - 11:58 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#94    StarMountainKid

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:39 PM

Mr Walker said:

Ps there is NOTHING etheral or metaphysical about the nature of cosciousness. It is a very physical concrete and real physical function consisting of basic chemical and electrical  physical processes and a system based operation of those elements. Indeed it is very much like a clock. It ticks because the individual components come together in a way to make  (or allow) the whole work. When functioning properly, it can not do anything else but work as it is  evolved to do. Just like a clock

Yes, I agree that consciousness is a very physical concrete and real physical function consisting of basic chemical and electrical physical prpcesses. However, the personal experience of consciousness is not the mechanism of consciousness. The mechanism produces our experience of consciousness, but what is this experience?

When you sit in a room and look around the room is physical, the brain producing consciousness is physical, but is the experience itself a physical entity? Can this experience be quantified and reduced to a mathematical equation? Can it be defined by an interpretation of the laws of physics?

Mr Walker said:

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world Be cheerful Strive to be happy
Great advice! :)

Edited by StarMountainKid, 19 April 2013 - 03:40 PM.

The acceptance of authority does not lead to intelligence.
A mind untouched by thought...the end of knowledge.
To see reality loose your opinions.

#95    Frank Merton

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

I refuse to thump Buddhist scripture (the Pali canon and assorted Sutras as bad taste for a Buddhist to do, although I've been known to thump the Bible when it serves me).

I now cannot refrain, in the context of what I've just been reading, from quoting a couple of extremely famous Taoist passages that have to do with time and being.  The connection may take some thought to find.

“If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading.” “When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be”


#96    White Crane Feather

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:27 PM

The enigma of qualia is interesting to think about. What I think most people miss  (especially reductionists) entirely Is the phenomenon of transcendence. It may be that the brain produces conciousness rather than receives it, but in the end it produces something totally distinct and transcendent of the sum of its parts.

For example. I have a singular self aware conciousness, but in a crowd a new dynamic arises. I am no longer just me, I am part of a whole and that whole transcends the capabilities and awareness of the individual. It's a new conciousness with its own dynamics. Link all our brains through technology ( like the Borg) and a new transcedent entity is born.

Think about what this means. Every Planck space is a nuron capable of holding one single piece of information.  All Planck spaces put together and the potential pathways in 3 dimensions form a Nural network of intense proportions. Then if string theory is correct there are the. 7 more Planck size dimentions to carry different kinds of spins or orbits on each piece of information. Qulia may exist everywhere at once..

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#97    danielost

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:27 PM

The idea of me is only a small portion of a person.  The majority of what makes us us is hidden from us until we need it or dream.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#98    Mr Walker

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:11 AM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 19 April 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Yes, I agree that consciousness is a very physical concrete and real physical function consisting of basic chemical and electrical physical prpcesses. However, the personal experience of consciousness is not the mechanism of consciousness. The mechanism produces our experience of consciousness, but what is this experience?

When you sit in a room and look around the room is physical, the brain producing consciousness is physical, but is the experience itself a physical entity? Can this experience be quantified and reduced to a mathematical equation? Can it be defined by an interpretation of the laws of physics?


Great advice! :)
In my knowledge and understanding of the science, then yes, the experience itself is a physical entity, just as an electrical current is a physical entity. it can be recorded measured etc. For example, love is an emotional and inrtellectual experience Both the emotional and intellectual properties of love are purely physical and real properties made possible by the nature of our body/brain interface. And so, in practice and reality , yes to your last set of questions.

The desiderata has motivated me all my life

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#99    StarMountainKid

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:54 AM

Mr Walker said:

In my knowledge and understanding of the science, then yes, the experience itself is a physical entity, just as an electrical current is a physical entity. it can be recorded measured etc. For example, love is an emotional and inrtellectual experience Both the emotional and intellectual properties of love are purely physical and real properties made possible by the nature of our body/brain interface. And so, in practice and reality , yes to your last set of questions.

My view is that the experience of consciousness itself is not a physical entity. Take color, for example. If we know all the physical properties of light waves, and understand the physical operations of the eye when a photon strikes the retina, and understand how the electro-chemecal processes within the brain respond to this stimuli, all this knowledge does not reveal the color red we experience in our consciousness.

The acceptance of authority does not lead to intelligence.
A mind untouched by thought...the end of knowledge.
To see reality loose your opinions.

#100    Mr Walker

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:43 AM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 20 April 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

My view is that the experience of consciousness itself is not a physical entity. Take color, for example. If we know all the physical properties of light waves, and understand the physical operations of the eye when a photon strikes the retina, and understand how the electro-chemecal processes within the brain respond to this stimuli, all this knowledge does not reveal the color red we experience in our consciousness.

Colour is a physical property like solidity or the state of matter is a physical property. Light waves are physical  entities. Our rods and cones are physical receivers of light. How is colour, then, NOT a physical property. For example I am physically colour blind in reds and greens. This is so because of physical/biological  flaws in my vision, not from any problem with perception or consciousness of colour. "Red" is the english label word for a physical property of colour which  humans see because it exists.

The colour red which i experience in my consciousness is  a signal recieved by my eyes, with a name and memory stored on one singular neuron in my brain, that allows me to recognise, catalogue, and compare- cross reference it, with what other humans call red. I  (my neuron storage and memory system) do the same for an apple or for paris hilton.  So when I ask for a red apple, a shop keeper can pick one out and give it to me. Both the colour and the apple are physical, and so can be physically identified by any human speaking the same language. Luckily my colour blndness is only at the extreme ends of the colour tones, so that i can tell a red and green apple (and have no problem with traffic lights) but some green and red  trousers  do look brown to me leading to some fashion clashes.

If I was not colour blind, i would see the colour red exactly as other humans do, because I would be seeing a unique and physical property which alll humans see the same if their vision is physically operating as it should.  What you are saying  is comparable to saying that our sense of touch cannot establish the objective solidity of an object we touch.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#101    StarMountainKid

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:49 PM

If one maps out or observes all the physical processes going on in the eye and brain you will not find the color red there. So, where does the color red exist as a physical entity and in what physical space does it occupy?

Quote

"The sensation of color cannot be accounted for by the physicist's objective picture of light-waves. Could the physiologist account for it, if he had fuller knowledge than he has of the processes in the retina and the nervous processes set up by them in the optical nerve bundles and in the brain? I do not think so.' - Erwin Schrodinger


Edited by StarMountainKid, 20 April 2013 - 04:50 PM.

The acceptance of authority does not lead to intelligence.
A mind untouched by thought...the end of knowledge.
To see reality loose your opinions.

#102    Mr Walker

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 02:12 AM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 20 April 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

If one maps out or observes all the physical processes going on in the eye and brain you will not find the color red there. So, where does the color red exist as a physical entity and in what physical space does it occupy?

The colour red exists as a physical entity both in the "colour" (you can define this as either the physical property of a certin reflective surface or in the nature of prismatic light) and in the electronic neuron storage in your mind. If it did not exist physically it could not be seen and identified "in common" by "all" humans The colour red has a similar physical property to the image of an elephant within  your brain as a recorded image. This is just like a real physical blue ray recording. But, just as the elephant exists physically, to be observed and recorded by your brain, so does the colour red. If red does not exist in/as an independent physical reality, then neither does the elephant, which brings us back to the pointlessness of this line of reasoning.
PS schroedinger was wrong. This is not due to any failing of his intellect or logic. It is perhaps only in the last decade where science has reached the knowledge and ability to do what he thought could never be done. Only philosphical  objection/argument over the nature of perceived reality continues to exist.

To make the point simpler i have rephrased his quote

If one maps out or observes all the physical processes going on in the eye and brain you will not find the elephant   there.

But of course, in a very real sense you will. You will find a physical recording of a real elephant (which you can extract, reproduce or manipulate ) just as you will find a physical recording of a very real colour red.

What you are unlikely to find is a recording of a red elephant, :innocent: although if a person has visualised one effectively, it will also be there, because the mind will have overlaid an elephant with the colour red, and recorded this image.

Edited by Mr Walker, 21 April 2013 - 02:39 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#103    danielost

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 06:50 AM

A rose will always be a rose, no matter what you call it, samething with color or anything else you change  the name of.

How do we see.  How do we pecive things.

It is like I sais in the op time and distance are relative.  We percive things a certain we because that is the way we learned them.

All living things expearnce time and distance differently because that is how their parents taught them.  Except, of course those whose parents didn't raise them.

Edited by danielost, 21 April 2013 - 06:58 AM.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#104    StarMountainKid

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 02:06 PM

Mr Walker,

The elephant is 'out there' physically, the elephant is in the brain as a neurological pattern, but where is the view of the elephant that exists in consciousness? I can see the elephant, but where is the "I" that sees it and where is the image of the elephant that I see?

You can say both the elephant in my consciousness and the "I" that is viewing it are patterns in my physical brain, but this does not explain my conscious experience of the elephant.

A computer with a light sensing device can see the elephant, too, but it has no consciousness of that view. The computer contains a physical pattern of the elephant as does the brain, but that's all it has. If the physical pattern of the elephant in the computer were all that were needed for conscious awareness of the elephant, the computer would be conscious as well.

Our conscious awareness of the elephant is a product of the physical brain, but our conscious experience Itself I think is not a physical phenomenon that can be analyzed by our knowledge of physics.

I think Schrodinger is correct in his statement. We disagree on this point, and I it seems we will not come to an agreement any time soon :).

The acceptance of authority does not lead to intelligence.
A mind untouched by thought...the end of knowledge.
To see reality loose your opinions.

#105    Frank Merton

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 02:09 PM

I know an elephant when I see one.





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