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Drunk teen killed


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#76    Sweetpumper

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:44 PM

View PostMichelle, on 18 March 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Or to put one down if they are dying a slow death in one of the illegal traps poachers put out for them.

Or a deer hit by a car...numerous situations.

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#77    Insaniac

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:44 PM

View PostMichelle, on 18 March 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

I've been camping and hiking for forty something years and have never had to shoot an animal. That doesn't mean I won't have the means to protect myself if the need arises. Or to put one down if they are dying a slow death in one of the illegal traps poachers put out for them.

If they are wounded and suffering, putting them out of their misery is fine. I see no problem with that.

And again, you wouldn't have the means to protect yourself, you'd have the means to slaughter an animal which is only doing what comes naturally to it: Defending it's territory and it's young.

If you're in a position where you're being attacked by a bear, chances are you're the problem and need to leave it's claimed territory. That's what any sane, kind-hearted, rational, lover of Nature would do.

"He is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened their heart against Him, and succeeded"? ~ Job 9:4

#78    Sweetpumper

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:47 PM

View PostInsaniac, on 18 March 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

chances are you're the problem and need to leave it's claimed territory.

We have printouts at ranger stations of which bears own what territory.

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#79    Insaniac

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:50 PM

View PostSweetpumper, on 18 March 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

We have printouts at ranger stations of which bears own what territory.

And you expect the bears to understand that, do you? LMAO.

Sometimes I wonder if your avatar is symbolic for the back of your head.

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#80    Gummug

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:51 PM

Have you ever noticed anytime a news event involving a shooting is reported, it almost always turns into a gun ownership debate? *sigh*

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#81    freetoroam

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:53 PM

View PostMichelle, on 18 March 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

What do you want them to do to protect their customers...shoot them?  We have thousands upon thousands of square miles of state parks/preserves here. Even though, the bears will wander into any area where humans are known to occupy because it's a good chance to grab a little easy food. They will even tear a car to pieces to get to it. We don't normally camp in official camp sites though.
I do not know about those campsites roaming with bears, so you tell me, how many bears are killed each year by campers and how many campers are killed each year by bears?

Are you still contemplating scuba diving in the shark infested waters? personally I have never tried it myself, but would really advice you not to do it.

please understand my point, you are wanting to go into the bear territory and yet you feel you have the first right to be there and shoot it if it gets near you? I can not get my head round that?  protect your own home my all means, shoot the intruder even if he is not armed if it makes you feel more secure, but come on, you want to go to someone elses territory and shoot the occupant if ti gets near you?  I assume the bears are not armed so the camper with the gun has the advantage?

Anyway, if you got any stats on the amount of deaths by bears on regular campers each year, it will give me some idea of the severity of the situation within these official camping sites, and the number of bears shoot too. thanks.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#82    freetoroam

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:55 PM

View PostMichelle, on 18 March 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

I've been camping and hiking for forty something years and have never had to shoot an animal. That doesn't mean I won't have the means to protect myself if the need arises. Or to put one down if they are dying a slow death in one of the illegal traps poachers put out for them.

Absolutely agree with this.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#83    Michelle

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:55 PM

View PostInsaniac, on 18 March 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

If they are wounded and suffering, putting them out of their misery is fine. I see no problem with that.

And again, you wouldn't have the means to protect yourself, you'd have the means to slaughter an animal which is only doing what comes naturally to it: Defending it's territory and it's young.

If you're in a position where you're being attacked by a bear, chances are you're the problem and need to leave it's claimed territory. That's what any sane, kind-hearted, rational, lover of Nature would do.

Oh pulease...tell that to your fox hunters. I have been at one with nature my entire life and have never shot an animal.


#84    Sweetpumper

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:58 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 18 March 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Anyway, if you got any stats on the amount of deaths by bears on regular campers each year, it will give me some idea of the severity of the situation within these official camping sites, and the number of bears shoot too. thanks.

I don't think it happens a lot but I don't want to be like that girl whose dad and sister were mauled to death and then she was eaten alive while on the cell phone with her mom.

View PostInsaniac, on 18 March 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

And you expect the bears to understand that, do you? LMAO.

Sometimes I wonder if your avatar is symbolic for the back of your head.

You have a wonderful sense of humor, I see.

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#85    CrimsonKing

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:04 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 18 March 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

My actually point is the reaction by the man, The guy was NOT armed, yes he was entering someone elses house, but does that warrant DEATH without question?
As I have said, the owner knows his home, surely he could have spared that extra couple of seconds watching as the drunk was staggering about to evaluate the situation first?
This lad was not breaking in to a property he had no business to be in, he did not know he was in the wrong house, but of course the owner was not to know that, but I still say that if he held fire a bit longer, he would have seen the lad was not threat.

I understand the situation, purely because it is in a country where guns are the law maker to many, but REALLY?? KILL HIM?? could he not have shoot at his leg or arm or is that not an option? you break into my house, you die?

I can think of a whole lot of cretins of society who really do deserve the death sentence, but they had time and lawyers on their side, unlike this lad, which is unfortunate, because with a couple of extra seconds of time he would still be alive and his parents would not be with out a son.

I agree the teen did not deserve death and usually one should always identify the target

An example of not so clear thinking

Say its 3 am and one has been asleep for an hour or two then hears something break or someone stumbling around in their house.All lights are off and there had been rumors of people running around doing all kinds of bad things in the neighborhood recently.What are you going to do?

Keep in mind you have no clue if the person is armed or not with no lights on.Do you cut the light on or start asking questions to give away your location,never know this person could be armed and a better trained shot than even yourself.This situation should not be judged by anyone with so few facts given,none of us were there and the article wasnt very informitive.

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#86    Rafterman

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:04 PM

View PostHilander, on 18 March 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Authorities say he entered the house through the rear window.  Not a good idea if its not your house but I think you should make sure someone is a real threat before you pull the trigger.

If someone enters my house through a rear window, they are a threat.

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#87    Sweetpumper

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:06 PM

View PostRafterman, on 18 March 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

If someone enters my house through a rear window, they are a threat.

C'mon, you mean you're not going to offer him a beverage and discuss his day at the table with him?

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#88    freetoroam

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:07 PM

View PostGummug, on 18 March 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Have you ever noticed anytime a news event involving a shooting is reported, it almost always turns into a gun ownership debate? *sigh*
yep, and its always the same lot on these threads, me included. Funny the difference in opinions on guns never changes with any of us, and yet give us another subject and some of us are in complete agreement. I think its healthy debating, as long as Michelle doesn`t go scubba diving in shark infested waters and tries to say i told her to.
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In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#89    Collateral Damage

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:11 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 18 March 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:


My actually point is the reaction by the man, The guy was NOT armed, yes he was entering someone elses house, but does that warrant DEATH without question?
As I have said, the owner knows his home, surely he could have spared that extra couple of seconds watching as the drunk was staggering about to evaluate the situation first?
This lad was not breaking in to a property he had no business to be in, he did not know he was in the wrong house, but of course the owner was not to know that, but I still say that if he held fire a bit longer, he would have seen the lad was not threat.

I understand the situation, purely because it is in a country where guns are the law maker to many, but REALLY?? KILL HIM?? could he not have shoot at his leg or arm or is that not an option? you break into my house, you die?

I can think of a whole lot of cretins of society who really do deserve the death sentence, but they had time and lawyers on their side, unlike this lad, which is unfortunate, because with a couple of extra seconds of time he would still be alive and his parents would not be with out a son.
The child being unarmed is something we can now verify after the situation has ended. That's coming from a completely different perspective than to when it had been occurring. The homeowner had absolutely no idea whether or not the intruder was armed and it was most likely dark in the house at the time. Why put your own life in danger for that extra few seconds just to verify whether or not this intruder was dangerous? In those seconds the homeowner could have easily been the one to be killed in his own house, had he followed what you've suggested, had the child been armed. This lad was breaking into a house he had no business in, whether aware of his actions or not, underage drinking doesn't excuse his actions. This is something we're going to agree to disagree on. One thing I'm sure we can agree on is being this is a tragedy and may the poor child rest in peace.

edit: typo

Edited by Collateral Damage, 18 March 2013 - 08:14 PM.

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#90    Thanato

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:12 PM

View PostInsaniac, on 18 March 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Assuming you've been taught self-defence techniques, you'd be able to disarm the gunman and hold him at gunpoint, at which point you order the attacker onto the ground and call the police, thus arresting the one committing the offence.

So, no thanks. I believe it cowardly to hide behind the barrel of a gun. I'd much rather use my fists.

Self defence does not nessessarily include skills in fighting opposition armed with a firearm. Even then you would have to be in very close proximity to be able to attempt to disarm them. Then it all depends on the type of weapon they are using, is it a shot gun? A pistol? A rilfe? What if they are wearing a sling? good luck taking the weapon.

People react very differently when their enemy has a weapon and all they have is there fists. Using a firearm is as cowardly as using a sword, or a knife, or a hammer. All of these are tools, it is up to the user to define there use.

Anyway, on topic. I'd like to say that it is in the American Culture to shoot first and sort it out later. It's in the movies, the games, the news. If you have a gun, you need to properly ID your target before engaging, this can take as little as a millisecond. But if you just shoot first, with out IDing your target, and he gets killed and it turns out that he was just a drunk kid. You just murdered someone, in the second degree. If they are armed, you can figure that out fast. If they are unarmed it is very easy to take control of the situation.

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