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The Back Steps in the Sun Dial of Ahaz


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#31    Jor-el

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:48 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 15 April 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

I do credit God for the survival of the Jewish People. But you must admit that men are the tools in the hands of God to deal with men. I mean to say that the Lord does not do anything by way of miracles.

Ben

Oh, I consider it a miracle the Jewish people survived their exile through the desert. Very few people or nations would survive 2000 years without a homeland and still keep their identity. In fact I can only think of one other and they have not been homeless for as long as the Jewish people.

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#32    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:30 PM

View PostJor-el, on 15 April 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

Oh, I consider it a miracle the Jewish people survived their exile through the desert. Very few people or nations would survive 2000 years without a homeland and still keep their identity. In fact I can only think of one other and they have not been homeless for as long as the Jewish people.

A miracle of whom, God's? What could be a miracle for the Creator of the universe? A miracle by definition is what happens beyond the potential of the miracle Maker. To attribute a miracle to God would be to bring Him down to the level of man. So said Baruch the Spinoza. In 1967 the Israelis crossed the Swez Canal with all their tanks on the dry so-to-speak to fight the Egyptians in Cairo. Was that a miracle of God? Of course not! Of the Israelis maybe.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 18 April 2013 - 06:32 PM.


#33    Jor-el

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:38 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 18 April 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

A miracle of whom, God's? What could be a miracle for the Creator of the universe? A miracle by definition is what happens beyond the potential of the miracle Maker. To attribute a miracle to God would be to bring Him down to the level of man. So said Baruch the Spinoza. In 1967 the Israelis crossed the Swez Canal with all their tanks on the dry so-to-speak to fight the Egyptians in Cairo. Was that a miracle of God? Of course not! Of the Israelis maybe.

Ben

A miracle by definition is what happens beyond the potential of the miracle Maker

Incorrect. A miracle by definition is what happens beyond the potencial of the recipient, not the Maker.

Heck it says so in every dictionary.

1: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

2: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment

3:Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

http://www.merriam-w...tionary/miracle

miracle (n.) mid-12c., "a wondrous work of God," from Old French miracle (11c.) "miracle, story of a miracle, miracle play," from Latin miraculum "object of wonder" (in Church Latin, "marvelous event caused by God"), from mirari "to wonder at, marvel, be astonished," figuratively "to regard, esteem," from mirus "wonderful, astonishing, amazing," earlier *smeiros, from PIE *smei- "to smile, laugh" (cf. Sanskrit smerah "smiling," Greek meidan "to smile," Old Church Slavonic smejo "to laugh;" see smile (v.)).

From mid-13c. as "extraordinary or remarkable feat," without regard to deity. Replaced Old English wundortacen, wundorweorc. The Greek words rendered as miracle in the English bibles were semeion "sign," teras "wonder," and dynamis "power," in Vulgate translated respectively as signum, prodigium, and virtus. The Latin word is the source of Spanish milagro, Italian miracolo. miraculous (adj.) mid-15c., from Middle French miraculeux, from Medieval Latin miraculosus, from Latin miraculum "miracle, marvel, wonder" (see miracle). Related: Miraculously (early 15c.); miraculousness.
http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Baruch Spinoza, you seem to admire the man, you speak so much of him, but even the Jews expelled him from their community for his views which are actually the basis of what is today called Pantheism, a belief that the very fabric of creation is actually part of God itself (not himself, since he denies God has intelligence, feeling, or will... ie, a personality). How can you on one hand say that God created the universe and then on the other hand use the ideas of a man who believes nothing of the sort? Do you not consistently state that God is not a part of this universe and that this univese is in fact a construct, that nothing can create itself?

Edited by Jor-el, 18 April 2013 - 08:41 PM.

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#34    Ben Masada

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 07:30 PM

View PostJor-el, on 18 April 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

A miracle by definition is what happens beyond the potential of the miracle Maker

Incorrect. A miracle by definition is what happens beyond the potencial of the recipient, not the Maker.

Heck it says so in every dictionary.

1: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

2: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment

3:Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

http://www.merriam-w...tionary/miracle

miracle (n.) mid-12c., "a wondrous work of God," from Old French miracle (11c.) "miracle, story of a miracle, miracle play," from Latin miraculum "object of wonder" (in Church Latin, "marvelous event caused by God"), from mirari "to wonder at, marvel, be astonished," figuratively "to regard, esteem," from mirus "wonderful, astonishing, amazing," earlier *smeiros, from PIE *smei- "to smile, laugh" (cf. Sanskrit smerah "smiling," Greek meidan "to smile," Old Church Slavonic smejo "to laugh;" see smile (v.)).

From mid-13c. as "extraordinary or remarkable feat," without regard to deity. Replaced Old English wundortacen, wundorweorc. The Greek words rendered as miracle in the English bibles were semeion "sign," teras "wonder," and dynamis "power," in Vulgate translated respectively as signum, prodigium, and virtus. The Latin word is the source of Spanish milagro, Italian miracolo. miraculous (adj.) mid-15c., from Middle French miraculeux, from Medieval Latin miraculosus, from Latin miraculum "miracle, marvel, wonder" (see miracle). Related: Miraculously (early 15c.); miraculousness.
http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Baruch Spinoza, you seem to admire the man, you speak so much of him, but even the Jews expelled him from their community for his views which are actually the basis of what is today called Pantheism, a belief that the very fabric of creation is actually part of God itself (not himself, since he denies God has intelligence, feeling, or will... ie, a personality). How can you on one hand say that God created the universe and then on the other hand use the ideas of a man who believes nothing of the sort? Do you not consistently state that God is not a part of this universe and that this univese is in fact a construct, that nothing can create itself?

Oh, so you go according to the dictionary. How can a dictionary explain Theology? But let me give you the benefit of the doubt. Take another look at your "1,2,3," above to credit the dictionary with being a paragon in the definition of a miracle. (1) What event can be called extraordinary if it is made by God? Even the universe was not extraordinary. (2) Extremely outstanding and unusual! Einstein said that God is constantly involved in the work of creation aka expansion of the universe. Jesus said that God has never stopped working. (John 5:17) What is extremely outstanding and unusual about God which warrant the name of a miracle?  (3) What is so phenomenal in a miracle as God is concerned?

Spinoza was expelled from the Jewish community because of the ignorance of jealousy and not because of Pantheism. One can adopt Pantheism or even Atheism and remain at home; I mean Judaism. The great Philosopher Nietzsche  described Baruch de Spinoza as a man intoxicated with God. How could someone intoxicated with God be a pantheist? And for your question about my belief that God created the universe, if He was part of the universe He could have not created the universe as He would not be able to cause Himself into existence. I thought only atheists could not understand this truth. I am afraid you can't either.

Ben


#35    Jor-el

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:05 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 20 April 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Oh, so you go according to the dictionary. How can a dictionary explain Theology? But let me give you the benefit of the doubt. Take another look at your "1,2,3," above to credit the dictionary with being a paragon in the definition of a miracle. (1) What event can be called extraordinary if it is made by God? Even the universe was not extraordinary. (2) Extremely outstanding and unusual! Einstein said that God is constantly involved in the work of creation aka expansion of the universe. Jesus said that God has never stopped working. (John 5:17) What is extremely outstanding and unusual about God which warrant the name of a miracle?  (3) What is so phenomenal in a miracle as God is concerned?

Spinoza was expelled from the Jewish community because of the ignorance of jealousy and not because of Pantheism. One can adopt Pantheism or even Atheism and remain at home; I mean Judaism. The great Philosopher Nietzsche  described Baruch de Spinoza as a man intoxicated with God. How could someone intoxicated with God be a pantheist? And for your question about my belief that God created the universe, if He was part of the universe He could have not created the universe as He would not be able to cause Himself into existence. I thought only atheists could not understand this truth. I am afraid you can't either.

Ben

Ben, it is you that are taking the word miracle to extreme lengths to make a point. The word miracle is a modern english word, is it not? The original words from the Hebrew and even the Koine Greek do not use the word miracle, since the concept of that word only exists in later terminology, so would you be so kind to tell me what words were used in those ancient languages, that translate to miracle in todays vernacular?

I'll tell you what I found:


mopheth: a wonder, sign, portent

Original Word: מוֹפֵת
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: mopheth
Phonetic Spelling: (mo-faith')
Short Definition: wonders
Word Origin: from an unused word
Definition: sign, portent, marvel, miracle, symbol, token, wonder

מוֺפֵת noun masculineDeut 29:2 wonder, sign, portent (= מאֹפֵת) — מוֺפֵת Exodus 7:9 14t.; מוֺפֶתְכֶם Ezekiel 12:11; מוֺפְתִים Deuteronomy 4:34 4t.; מֹפְתִים Deuteronomy 6:22 9t.; מוֺפְתַי Exodus 7:3; Exodus 11:9; מוֺפְתָיו Psalm 78:43; מֹפְתָיו 1 Chronicles 16:12; Psalm 105:5

1 wonder, as special display of God's power Exodus 7:3; Exodus 11:9; Psalm 105:5; 1 Chronicles 16:12; Joel 3:3; by Moses and Aaron Exodus 4:21; Exodus 11:10; compare Exodus 7:9 (in mouth of Pharaoh), by false prophets Deuteronomy 13:2; Deuteronomy 13:3 ("" אות); usually "" אות Deuteronomy 4:34; Deuteronomy 6:22; Deuteronomy 7:19; Deuteronomy 26:8; Deuteronomy 29:2; Deuteronomy 34:11; Psalm 78:43; Psalm 105:27; Psalm 135:9; Jeremiah 32:20,21; Nehemiah 9:10; applied to effect of Yahweh's curse Deuteronomy 28:46 ("" אות); to one protected by ׳י Psalm 71:7.

2 sign or token of future event (compare אוֺת) 1 Kings 13:3 (twice in verse); 1 Kings 13:5; 2Chronicles 32:24,31; symbolic act Isaiah 20:3 ("" אות); as such the term is applied to persons Isaiah 8:18 ("" אות) Ezekiel 12:6,11; Ezekiel 24:24,27; compare׳אַנְשֵׁי מ Zechariah 3:8 men who serve as a symbol or sign. — Vb. used, of divine act, is נתן Exodus 7:9 etc.,שׂים Jeremiah 32:20; שׂים also of entrusting to human power Exodus 4:21, compare דִּבֶּר 1 Kings 13:3; of human agency עשׂה Exodus 4:21; Exodus 11:10, נתן 1 Kings 13:3,5.

In other words Ben the term miracle is used uniquely by us puny humans to describe events that boggle our minds. To us they are something extraordinary, to God they nothing much, but useful to his people to show them he cares for them. To use a little anthropomorphology, it is an act of love by God to his children who he loves, much like I give my son present because I love him not because he deserves it. For my son it is an amazing gift, to me, it is an expression of my love but nothing extraordinary.

You do realize that the God of Baruch Espinoza is totally different from the God of the bible or even most peoples view of God. It is perhaps more correct to say that Espinozas God is something much like the "force" in star wars... if you study what he has said about god you would understand why I say that. As for the last comment, I completely agree with you God is not a part of the universe, the universe is not a part of God, it is a creation, an artifact, a thing he created, he by necessity is not part of it or it would mean that he too would have brought himself into being and that is not a God who by definition is eternal and beyond space and time. I just want you to realize that Espinoza didn't believe in such a god and that his quotes that you use are biased and erroneous because of that. His god is part of the universe that was created, his god has no intelligence, it just is. His god has no motivation, no will and no personality, in other words it is not a self conscious entity, it is a thing a "force". That is why it doesn't do miracles.... I hope you understand why using that quote by him is not the best way to go.

Edited by Jor-el, 20 April 2013 - 10:06 PM.

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-C. S. Lewis


#36    Ben Masada

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:36 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 April 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

Ben, it is you that are taking the word miracle to extreme lengths to make a point. The word miracle is a modern english word, is it not? The original words from the Hebrew and even the Koine Greek do not use the word miracle, since the concept of that word only exists in later terminology, so would you be so kind to tell me what words were used in those ancient languages, that translate to miracle in todays vernacular?

I'll tell you what I found:




mopheth: a wonder, sign, portent

Original Word: מוֹפֵת
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: mopheth
Phonetic Spelling: (mo-faith')
Short Definition: wonders
Word Origin: from an unused word
Definition: sign, portent, marvel, miracle, symbol, token, wonder

מוֺפֵת noun masculineDeut 29:2 wonder, sign, portent (= מאֹפֵת) — מוֺפֵת Exodus 7:9 14t.; מוֺפֶתְכֶם Ezekiel 12:11; מוֺפְתִים Deuteronomy 4:34 4t.; מֹפְתִים Deuteronomy 6:22 9t.; מוֺפְתַי Exodus 7:3; Exodus 11:9; מוֺפְתָיו Psalm 78:43; מֹפְתָיו 1 Chronicles 16:12; Psalm 105:5

1 wonder, as special display of God's power Exodus 7:3; Exodus 11:9; Psalm 105:5; 1 Chronicles 16:12; Joel 3:3; by Moses and Aaron Exodus 4:21; Exodus 11:10; compare Exodus 7:9 (in mouth of Pharaoh), by false prophets Deuteronomy 13:2; Deuteronomy 13:3 ("" אות); usually "" אות Deuteronomy 4:34; Deuteronomy 6:22; Deuteronomy 7:19; Deuteronomy 26:8; Deuteronomy 29:2; Deuteronomy 34:11; Psalm 78:43; Psalm 105:27; Psalm 135:9; Jeremiah 32:20,21; Nehemiah 9:10; applied to effect of Yahweh's curse Deuteronomy 28:46 ("" אות); to one protected by ׳י Psalm 71:7.

2 sign or token of future event (compare אוֺת) 1 Kings 13:3 (twice in verse); 1 Kings 13:5; 2Chronicles 32:24,31; symbolic act Isaiah 20:3 ("" אות); as such the term is applied to persons Isaiah 8:18 ("" אות) Ezekiel 12:6,11; Ezekiel 24:24,27; compare׳אַנְשֵׁי מ Zechariah 3:8 men who serve as a symbol or sign. — Vb. used, of divine act, is נתן Exodus 7:9 etc.,שׂים Jeremiah 32:20; שׂים also of entrusting to human power Exodus 4:21, compare דִּבֶּר 1 Kings 13:3; of human agency עשׂה Exodus 4:21; Exodus 11:10, נתן 1 Kings 13:3,5.

In other words Ben the term miracle is used uniquely by us puny humans to describe events that boggle our minds. To us they are something extraordinary, to God they nothing much, but useful to his people to show them he cares for them. To use a little anthropomorphology, it is an act of love by God to his children who he loves, much like I give my son present because I love him not because he deserves it. For my son it is an amazing gift, to me, it is an expression of my love but nothing extraordinary.

You do realize that the God of Baruch Espinoza is totally different from the God of the bible or even most peoples view of God. It is perhaps more correct to say that Espinozas God is something much like the "force" in star wars... if you study what he has said about god you would understand why I say that. As for the last comment, I completely agree with you God is not a part of the universe, the universe is not a part of God, it is a creation, an artifact, a thing he created, he by necessity is not part of it or it would mean that he too would have brought himself into being and that is not a God who by definition is eternal and beyond space and time. I just want you to realize that Espinoza didn't believe in such a god and that his quotes that you use are biased and erroneous because of that. His god is part of the universe that was created, his god has no intelligence, it just is. His god has no motivation, no will and no personality, in other words it is not a self conscious entity, it is a thing a "force". That is why it doesn't do miracles.... I hope you understand why using that quote by him is not the best wa y to go.

Good job you have done as miracle is concerned but you stopped just short to find the real word in Hebrew for miracle. What you have found pertains to signs and wonders but not in the specific terms of a religious miracle which in Hebrew points to the word, "Nes" or "nissim" in the plural. And as Spinoza is concerned if you lived here next door I would be glad to present you with a copy of his book "Tractatus Theologico-Politicus". I have three copies. It is in this book that he criticizes the attribution of miracles to God which is tantamount to bringing Him down to the level of man. Besides if you read the whole book it will help you change your mind about your pantheistic impression of him. I think everyone who thinks of Spinoza as a pantheist should read this book of his. As far as I am concerned there is not much of a difference between a pantheist and an atheist whose immediate answer from Einstein was "Absolutely not" to a question if he was one.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 23 April 2013 - 07:38 PM.


#37    Jor-el

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:00 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 23 April 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Good job you have done as miracle is concerned but you stopped just short to find the real word in Hebrew for miracle. What you have found pertains to signs and wonders but not in the specific terms of a religious miracle which in Hebrew points to the word, "Nes" or "nissim" in the plural. And as Spinoza is concerned if you lived here next door I would be glad to present you with a copy of his book "Tractatus Theologico-Politicus". I have three copies. It is in this book that he criticizes the attribution of miracles to God which is tantamount to bringing Him down to the level of man. Besides if you read the whole book it will help you change your mind about your pantheistic impression of him. I think everyone who thinks of Spinoza as a pantheist should read this book of his. As far as I am concerned there is not much of a difference between a pantheist and an atheist whose immediate answer from Einstein was "Absolutely not" to a question if he was one.

Ben

"Nes" does not mean miracle in ancient hebrew... it is a modern term as can be seen here....http://jhom.com/topi...cles/hebrew.htm

Not once in the Tanakh is "nes" translated as "miracle".

You can do a search for it yourself if you do not believe me...  http://www.bluelette...ngs=H5251&t=KJV

You can then compare it to the JPS Tanakh... http://www.mechon-ma...rg/e/et/et0.htm

Since you are so adamant regarding Espinoza, I will do something I rarely do for others (don't exactly have all the free time in the world), I'll read his book and form an opinion for myself. I found it to be freely available online... http://ebooks.adelai...e/complete.html

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#38    Ben Masada

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:19 PM

View PostJor-el, on 23 April 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Quote

"Nes" does not mean miracle in ancient hebrew... it is a modern term as can be seen here....http://jhom.com/topi...cles/hebrew.htm

Not once in the Tanakh is "nes" translated as "miracle".

You can do a search for it yourself if you do not believe me...  http://www.bluelette...ngs=H5251&t=KJV

You can then compare it to the JPS Tanakh... http://www.mechon-ma...rg/e/et/et0.htm

Since you are so adamant regarding Espinoza, I will do something I rarely do for others (don't exactly have all the free time in the world), I'll read his book and form an opinion for myself. I found it to be freely available online... http://ebooks.adelai...e/complete.html


Try to focus on the chapters about Prophets and prophecies. I have the JPS translation of the Tanach at home I'll read it more often. The point is that to deal with Christians I prefer to stick with the KJV and NAB (Saint Joseph's Edition)

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 23 April 2013 - 09:21 PM.





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