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Obama blunder 2 fail 2 de-escalate Drug War?


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#1    sear

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:24 PM

The U.S. economic recovery is lethargic. We've been out of recession for years.

But unemployment is still around 7.7%

Quote

  U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 20 Mar 2013 at 05:50:37 PM GMT is: Posted Image
The estimated population of the United States is 314,627,367
so each citizen's share of this debt is $53,216.14.


http://www.brillig.c...m/debt_clock/  
Further, the E.U. is teetering on collapse.

The news from Syria is horrifying. ~70K dead?

BUT!

The death toll in Northern Mexico isn't all that much lower, around ~60K at my last check.
Those are deaths from Mexico's Drug War.

Does any of this make sense?

The U.S. has spent roughly a $Trillion on Drug War. And what has it accomplished?

Quote

"In 1960 in this country [U.S.] there were only 4,000,000 people in the entire nation who had ever used an illicit drug at any time in their life. By 1990 we had 80,000,000 people in this country who had used illicit drugs at any time in their life, and the numbers who became hard core, frequent users were proportional and commensurate." DEA Administrator Thomas Constantine   
According to this top DEA agent, Drug War has only made matters worse, by an order of magnitude!

We've been here before! Our previous Prohibition was a dismal failure! We repealed it, and Capone style drive-by shootings slowed to a trickle.

What are we spending on Drug War? Nearly $20 $Billion?

That's not the whole story! This Harvard economist says we'd save more than double that much, if we dialed down the Drug War.

Quote

  Costs to taxpayers
A 2008 study by Harvard economist Jeffrey A. Miron has estimated that legalizing drugs would save taxpayers $76.8 billion a year in the United States — $44.1 billion from law enforcement savings, and at least $32.7 billion in tax revenue ($6.7 billion from marijuana, $22.5 billion from cocaine and heroin, remainder from other drugs).[116][117]  

http://www.ask.com/w...ar_on_Drugs    
There are perils to spending cuts. If we cut the Pentagon's budget too much, we risk a military invasion, perhaps even a loss of sovereignty to a military aggressor.
If we cut education, we may lose our competitive status in globalized economic competition.

Besides the simple logic, the writing is on the wall.
"Medical marijuana" is legal in over a dozen States.
Recreational marijuana is legal in two States.

Can we not see what the trend is here?

Further:
In the recent CPAC conference, dialing back the Drug War was mentioned.
Conservative standard-bearer William F. Buckley Jr. was on that bandwagon for decades.

In our budget crisis of a $Trillion per year additional debt, is saving only $76.8 $Billion per year deminimus?

Or is our economy so high a priority that nothing should be taken off the economic negotiation table?

And what of Obama's role in this?
Is he resisting doing the sensible thing here, because he doesn't want history to remember him as: "the Black president that legalized drugs"?

In that regard, is Obama putting himself ahead of his country and People? His reputation is more important than the welfare of the nation?

Or shall we think Drug War a good thing, and that we should return to beverage alcohol prohibition as well?


#2    Kowalski

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:35 PM

The reason Prohibition and our so-called "War" on Drugs hasn't worked either, is because you can't tell people what to do with their bodies. The government has NO business telling us what we can and can't do. It's none of the dang business!
Remember the movie "Demolition Man"? Remember this quote:

Quote


Edgar Friendly: You see, according to Cocteau's plan, I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think; I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy who likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".



#3    sear

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:53 PM

Quote

"The government has NO business telling us what we can and can't do." K
It has, but there are limits to it.

Quote

  "No right is absolute. Conversely, no government authority is absolute." law Professor & former ACLU head Nadine Strossen  
Our government can tell us not to murder.

But our government ought not tell us we can't have a Mudweiser while we're watching the Superbowl.

But K, I had in mind the economic & pragmatic question in mind.

Drug War isn't working. In fact, it's falling apart.

And we've got very serious money worries here.

We've taken so many U.S. citizens prisoner of Drug War that the nation we memorialize in song as "the land of the free, and the home of the brave" has the highest per capita incarceration rate in the Western world.

Should we really continue to squander the $76.8 billion a year Drug War is costing us?

Or is it time we got serious about debt, deficit, human rights, and the principles of Liberty our nation was Founded upon?


#4    OverSword

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:55 PM

The truth is there is much money to be made by private companies and huge budgets to be allocated (from tax payer dollars of course) to government and military institutions, as well as money to be laundered and skimmed off of by banks, that would all dry up and blow away were the war on drugs to end....So they are not going to end.  Period.


#5    Kowalski

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 07:03 PM

View Postsear, on 20 March 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

It has, but there are limits to it.

Our government can tell us not to murder.

But our government ought not tell us we can't have a Mudweiser while we're watching the Superbowl.

But K, I had in mind the economic & pragmatic question in mind.

Drug War isn't working. In fact, it's falling apart.

And we've got very serious money worries here.

We've taken so many U.S. citizens prisoner of Drug War that the nation we memorialize in song as "the land of the free, and the home of the brave" has the highest per capita incarceration rate in the Western world.

Should we really continue to squander the $76.8 billion a year Drug War is costing us?

Or is it time we got serious about debt, deficit, human rights, and the principles of Liberty our nation was Founded upon?


You're right. I wonder how much it costs us to keep so many people incarcerated? Probably quite a bit of money...
If we can save $76.8 Billion a year, without cutting into Social Security and Medicare than we need to do it.


#6    AsteroidX

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 07:14 PM

Are the incarceration costs even figured into that 76.8B >?


#7    CrimsonKing

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:04 PM

View PostKowalski, on 20 March 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

The reason Prohibition and our so-called "War" on Drugs hasn't worked either, is because you can't tell people what to do with their bodies. The government has NO business telling us what we can and can't do. It's none of the dang business!
Remember the movie "Demolition Man"? Remember this quote:

Awesome lol i used this same quote not long ago on a different topic,really hits home to what we are starting to see in real life. :tu:

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#8    sear

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:12 PM

Quote

"The truth is there is much money to be made ..." OS
Amen!
Every $dollar of government spending has a constituency.
But guess what.
I don't think the prison industrial complex should trump our children.

Quote

"Every gun that is made, every warship that is launched, every rocket that is fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children ..." President Dwight D. Eisenhower


"There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt." John Adams  
K posted:

Quote

"If we can save $76.8 Billion a year, without cutting into Social Security and Medicare than we need to do it." K  
Short, sweet, logically irrefutable, fiscally responsible, and we might even fit it onto a bumper-sticker!!

Quote

"Are the incarceration costs even figured into that 76.8B >?" AX  
I believe so.

Quote

"Harvard economist Jeffrey A. Miron has estimated that legalizing drugs would save taxpayers $76.8 billion a year in the United States — $44.1 billion from law enforcement savings"

http://www.ask.com/w.../War_on_Drugs  
I'm guessing the "law enforcement saviings" referred to there is the entire criminal justice element, from police, through jail / prison.
Part of my reason for suspecting so is, last I checked, it said we spend about $20 $B per year on DW. I'm guessing that's only the police (& perhaps court) costs, but not incarceration.


#9    sear

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:17 PM

PS

K & CK,

Please forgive me. I'm not trying to be obtuse. Perhaps it's because I'm not familar with the "Demolition Man" reference. (a movie? didn't see it)

I read the quote but don't get it. Am I just too old? Comprehensionally impaired?


#10    Kowalski

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:51 PM

No, you're not obtuse.


The film tells the story of two men—one, an evil crime lord; the other, a risk-taking police officer—who are cryogenically frozen in the year 1996 and reawakened in 2032. Following a massive earthquake in 2010 that destroyed much of Los Angeles, it merged with San Diego to form a planned city called San Angeles in which all crime has seemingly been eliminated from mainstream society.
Some aspects of the film allude to Aldous Huxley's dystopian novel, Brave New World.
Dr. Raymond Cocteau is in charge of San Angeles and ALL vices are outlawed. No swearing, drinking, sex, unhealthy food and drink, smoking, etc.
Dennis Leary's character, Edgar Friendly, is fighting against Cocteau.


#11    Yes_Man

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:26 PM

The republicans would of continued it anyway


#12    sear

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:37 PM

Quote

"Dennis Leary's character, Edgar Friendly, is fighting against Cocteau." K  
Alright. Now I have to see it. Thanks.

Quote

"The republicans would of continued it anyway" TN
So we might have thought. Governor Gary Johnson (a Republican I gather) favors decriminalization of marijuana. And I believe (though I haven't read the transcript) that at the recent CPAC, one of the issues focused upon was rebranding the GOP.
And while they mentioned easing off on immigration, welcoming more diversity, they also mentioned decriminalization of some currently illegal drugs.

CPAC isn't congress. But it's a hopeful sign.


#13    Kowalski

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 01:13 PM

View Postsear, on 21 March 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Alright. Now I have to see it. Thanks.

So we might have thought. Governor Gary Johnson (a Republican I gather) favors decriminalization of marijuana. And I believe (though I haven't read the transcript) that at the recent CPAC, one of the issues focused upon was rebranding the GOP.
And while they mentioned easing off on immigration, welcoming more diversity, they also mentioned decriminalization of some currently illegal drugs.

CPAC isn't congress. But it's a hopeful sign.

Rand Paul, a conservative Republican, is FOR decriminalization of marijuana. So were many others at CPAC.


#14    sear

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 01:27 PM

Rand Paul, his dad Ron. Gary Johnson.
So far as I understand the definition of the term: it is politically conservative to favor the termination of Drug War.

Political conservatism means favoring smaller, less intrusive, less authoritarian government; also favoring balanced budgets / fiscal responsibility, etc.

K,
I didn't get to CPAC, but what little of it I caught on TV seemed encouraging.


#15    Kowalski

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:49 PM

View Postsear, on 23 March 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Rand Paul, his dad Ron. Gary Johnson.
So far as I understand the definition of the term: it is politically conservative to favor the termination of Drug War.

Political conservatism means favoring smaller, less intrusive, less authoritarian government; also favoring balanced budgets / fiscal responsibility, etc.

K,
I didn't get to CPAC, but what little of it I caught on TV seemed encouraging.

Oh, I agree. I does look very promising.





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