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Dyatlov Pass Incident

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#16    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 12:45 PM

It may seem bizarre to people still trapped in a coldwar mentality, but "Homo Sovieticus" never existed. Military tests were carried out in designated ranges (полигон - poligon), not randomly anywhere military decided. And people did not live cowering in their houses waiting for KGB to come and randomly kill them. Certainly not after Stalin died, and this incident is six years after his death. These hikers were not in any training or test area, it has never been shown to be. The injuries are not the result of any thermobaric bomb. There is zero radiation in them, they kill, depending on distance from ground zero and location, underground bunker for instance, by blast, suffocation or burning. Burning does not make your skin go brown, it makes it go red and then black as you get cooked, there is no intermediate phase of "brown". Also, if they had been killed by result of any explosion, why was the snow not affected, where was the blast pattern on the ground? And this also goes for any theory about a stray R-7 rocket crashing nearby.


#17    Kowalski

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:06 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 22 March 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

Why weird? How about this idea?

Frankly, E.V.Buyanov and B.E.Slobtsov (in Russian) investigation and explanation of the events is the most compelling.

Okay, a couple of things about this theory. In some ways it does makes sense. But, if it was just a slab of snow that fell on the tent, and they think it is an avalanche. So they leave with a few injured friends, but why didn't they go back? Surely after an hour or so, they would have realized it was safe to go back. Especially if some people needed medical help.
From what I've read these were experienced hikers. Surely, they would have known the difference between an avalanch and a slab of snow following onto their tent?

Something else I found:

Posted Image

Thought this was interesting.


#18    quillius

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:13 PM

View PostKowalski, on 02 May 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:


Thought this was interesting.

Hello Kowalski, havent time to find it now but there was a decent thread on this a while back with lots of good info dug up.

If I get a chance I will try and find it for you tomorrow


#19    Spinebreaker

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:56 PM

It's a great area for study.  It's not far from Tunguska, you have the whole 'valley of death' with the weird heated 'cauldrons' (upturned metal spheres that seem to be radioactive) that loads of places in the area are named after.  It's claimed that there's an alien construction under Siberia that shoots meteors out of the sky, there's even footage of a Russian Defense Minister talking about the 'installation' and that everyone in the area knows about it.  Plus Dyatlov's unfortunate excursion and the frequent UFO reports from the area...

It's almost all nonsense, but it seems to be a strange place.

Galileo was imprisoned by the Church,
For exposing that the Earth was not the centre of the Universe.
So in 1616 they already had control,
Of what they thought you and I were allowed to know.

#20    The Exorcist

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:13 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 02 May 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

It may seem bizarre to people still trapped in a coldwar mentality, but "Homo Sovieticus" never existed. Military tests were carried out in designated ranges (полигон - poligon), not randomly anywhere military decided. And people did not live cowering in their houses waiting for KGB to come and randomly kill them. Certainly not after Stalin died, and this incident is six years after his death. These hikers were not in any training or test area, it has never been shown to be. The injuries are not the result of any thermobaric bomb. There is zero radiation in them, they kill, depending on distance from ground zero and location, underground bunker for instance, by blast, suffocation or burning. Burning does not make your skin go brown, it makes it go red and then black as you get cooked, there is no intermediate phase of "brown". Also, if they had been killed by result of any explosion, why was the snow not affected, where was the blast pattern on the ground? And this also goes for any theory about a stray R-7 rocket crashing nearby.

I don't think that you have to believe in Homo Sovieticus for the story of a Soviet cover-up to be plausible. I mean, the American/British military has also been involved in cover-ups. It goes with the nature of the military that they would cover up certain things. In Soviet Russia, this would have been all the more common. We all know about the stories of missing Russian cosmonauts (ok, this may be merely an urban legend). Obviously I would not contradict what you say since you actually live in the ex-USSR.

Regarding the thermobaric bomb, you are right in saying it contains no radiation. However the amount of radiation found on some of the victims was very small. It could have been a result of some previous Soviet weapons testing in the area. I think that this is the most logical explanation.

I don't have an answer as to why the snow was not disturbed, or as to why there was no blast pattern. If it were snowing heavily, I suppose the traces could have been covered up pretty quickly though.

"Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

#21    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:54 PM

View PostExorcist, on 02 May 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

I don't think that you have to believe in Homo Sovieticus for the story of a Soviet cover-up to be plausible.
That term is more about the propaganda image of Soviet people being some sort of sub-human. Started by the nazis and unfortunately still surviving in some peoples minds......

However I see what you mean in your post, and that is the desire of military and politicians in all countries to never to admit any error and keep secrets secret. There was an attempt a few years back to close this case down by saying that they were killed because of military testing in the area. Yet they were not in a live fire range and no evidence has ever been put forward to prove any military involvement. As far worse disasters have been disclosed since 1991, it does not make any sense to me, that if this was caused by some human error, that it would be kept secret. There is no military technology from 1959 that is still secret, all that could be kept secret are the names of any guilty people, and senior commanders would be dead by now. If this incident is the result of a man made error, then at this remove in time, I cannot see any reason for secrets to be kept. It is certainly a strange incident, and I still have an open mind about the causes. There is of course the possibility that something went wrong at a local level, and that those resonsible were able to keep this secret from their commanders. Therefore there will not be any "paper trail" in the command chain.

Perhaps some old guy, a junior officer at the time, even now sleeps uneasily thinking of what he was resonsible for. Nobody knows.....

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 02 May 2013 - 02:55 PM.


#22    quillius

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 08:27 AM

View PostKowalski, on 02 May 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:



http://www.unexplain...topic=223368= dyatlov&st=0

Hello Kowalski,

I am not sure where thread is. Maybe it was discussed in a Best Evidence thread or the Tantalizing testimony one....The link above is to a specific thread on the event, although not a long thread it still has a few good links with further info.


#23    Kowalski

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:45 PM

View Postquillius, on 03 May 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

http://www.unexplain...topic=223368= dyatlov&st=0

Hello Kowalski,

I am not sure where thread is. Maybe it was discussed in a Best Evidence thread or the Tantalizing testimony one....The link above is to a specific thread on the event, although not a long thread it still has a few good links with further info.

Thanks for posting this link!


#24    Kowalski

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:03 PM

Really good link I found in this thread: http://www.aquiziam....ss_answers.html

Quote

The answer to this question has been compiled by a combination of review, first hand testimony and personal investigation.  The evidence against an avalanche is as follows:

  • At the time of discovery, the specific location of the incident did not have any obvious signs of an avalanche having taken place.  Many people have assumed that because the search and rescue party seen in old photographs had snow prods there must have been considerable movement of snow.  In actual fact the snow prod is merely standard rescue equipment.

  • A study of the area using up-to-date terrain-related physics has revealed that the location is not conducive to the formation of snow build up of the kind that causes an avalanche.
  • "More than 100 expeditions to the region have been held since the event took place and none of them have ever reported conditions that might create an avalanche in this location."

  • The first bodies were found within ten days of the event and only covered with a shallow layer of (atmospheric) snow.

    Had there been an avalanche of sufficient strength to sweep away the second party then these bodies would have been swept away as well.

  • The condition of the tent when it was discovered indicated that it had not been impacted with any form of snow flow of sufficient strength to knock over the poles.  Put another way – it had collapsed laterally not horizontally. This is clearly visible in the photographs.

  • An avalanche would have left “Flow” patterns and other “debris” distributed over a wide area.  Neither of these indicators were ever found.

Posted Image

The Collapsed Tent

  • An avalanche of sufficient strength to “sweep” four people into a ravine – beyond the tree line – some 1.5 kilometres from their tent should have produced two results.  Firstly it would have caused far more serious and different injuries and secondly it would have damaged the tree line at the point of impact.  Neither of these conditions were ever observed.

  • The "dangerous" conditions sometimes referred to by proponents of the avalanche theory were observed in April and May when the snow falls of winter were melting.  During February, when the incident occurred, there were no such conditions.  In addition, the so called conditions were observed in a different location with significantly steeper slopes and cornices.

  • An analysis of the terrain, the slope and the incline indicates that even if there could have been a “miraculous” avalanche, its trajectory would have bypassed the tent.

  • Dyatlov was an experienced skier and the much older Alexander Zolotarev was studying for his Masters Certificate in ski instruction and mountain hiking.  Neither of these two men would have been foolish enough to allow the camp to be established anywhere in the path of a possible avalanche.

  • Dubanina’s tongue was not ripped out it was degraded through natural processes

  • The radiation found was inconsequential

  • The area was not sealed off to everyone – only amateur sports groups

  • The case was never classified

  • There are currently no records of any experimental aircraft being tested in the area in 1959

  • There is no evidence (now or then) that the area was used to test weapons.  However, this doesn’t rule out secret testing

  • Photographs thought to be missile parts have turned out to be old radar units

  • The mysterious envelope contained only general correspondence

  • Photographs show that any discolouration of the bodies was wholly normal

  • The woman on the train who claimed there were eleven people has turned out to be a very unreliable witness (and a different person altogether).

  • The injuries discovered are explainable and consistent with those that might be expected to occur in a group of desperate and clearly frightened people that had been stumbling around in dangerous conditions in the dark.

  • There is absolutely no substantiated evidence for crashed UFO’s, Concussion Weapons, Mad Mansi or Russian Death Squads.

  • All the physical evidence found at the time and subsequent analysis and testing indicates that there was no avalanche.  However, at least one person involved with this case still believes that an avalanche was the cause.
However, these now broadly accepted facts do not diminish the mystery – in a strange way they enhance it.  As we have repeatedly said throughout these pages ... Why did nine, experienced and sensible, ski-hikers abandon their tent in such a hurry and in weather conditions that were hostile and almost certain to lead to their deaths? What really happened that night?



#25    The Exorcist

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 10:49 AM

The Aquiziam website explains many of the mysteries and clarifies many of the bad reporting of information, for instance that Dubanina's tongue was not ripped out, but just basically decomposed.

The radiation issue is also mostly explainable as fallout from atomic weapons testing, which was widespread in the USSR.

No UFOs involved here folks.

Edited by Exorcist, 04 May 2013 - 10:54 AM.

"Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

#26    Kowalski

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:02 PM

View PostExorcist, on 04 May 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

The Aquiziam website explains many of the mysteries and clarifies many of the bad reporting of information, for instance that Dubanina's tongue was not ripped out, but just basically decomposed.

The radiation issue is also mostly explainable as fallout from atomic weapons testing, which was widespread in the USSR.

No UFOs involved here folks.

I don't know about that.

Quote

However, these now broadly accepted facts do not diminish the mystery – in a strange way they enhance it.  As we have repeatedly said throughout these pages ... Why did nine, experienced and sensible, ski-hikers abandon their tent in such a hurry and in weather conditions that were hostile and almost certain to lead to their deaths? What really happened that night?

Also:

Quote

One member of the team - Alexander Zolotarev – was significantly older than the others and at 37 almost twice the age of the youngest. What was his profession and what was his connection to the team?

Alexander Zolotarev was a ski / tour instructor (a professional travel guide) and wanted to go together with Dyatlov’s team to add performance points to his degree and so achieve promotion to the rank of “Master” or Expert instructor. This was and still is the practice in Russia. Zolotarev did not know the other team members but was recommended by friends of the team from the sports club. He was accepted into the team and according to the diaries he co-operated and worked well with all of them. It is worth noting that Sports Associations were common at this time as was the willingness for people, who shared an interest such as skiing, to cooperate with each other where possible.

They were obviously all experienced ski-hikers. Why would they leave their tent in such a hurry and in such hostile conditions?

Quote

What are the details of the skull injury experienced by Nicolas Thibeaux-Brignollel?

This information alone could go a very long way to solving the mystery. For example, is it an impact injury or a comprehensive pressure injury? Was there retinal detachment? Was he alive or dead when it happened? This information was apparently very precisely recorded by the Judicial Doctor (Coroner) at the time.  He recorded that such a head injury was most likely to have been caused by impact with a rock as a result of a fall from a height of 2 – 3 metres (6 to 10ft) but not more. The reason for this is that impacts of this kind only occur at a velocity of up to 7 – 8 Metres per second.  Faster impact speeds generally cause a break (breach) at the apex or arch of the skull with little evident trauma to the base.  In the case of Nicolas Thibeaux-Brignollel there was no apex related damage.

In addition, the forensic evidence suggests that he was alive when he sustained the injury. It was almost certainly caused by impact and not pressure.  According to our information sources the pressure required to create such an injury would have had to be not less than 1 – 1.5 tons.  There was no material or evidence of materials that could have caused this pressure.  However, by virtue of the process of dynamics such an injury could easily be sustained through impact.



#27    DONTEATUS

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:28 PM

Number Nine,Number Nine,Number Nine ! :whistle:  Beatles Rock Still !

This is a Work in Progress!

#28    IMAnonymous

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:41 AM

View PostSpinebreaker, on 02 May 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

2. and 6. are, unfortunately, merely word of mouth.

Both are true.  #2 is not necessarily considered mysterious and #6 has been been demonstrated to be K-40.





Quote

.

3. and 4. It's called paradoxical undressing.  In severe states of Hypothermia people go a bit mental and think they are far too hot.  It's pretty reasonable for those things to have happened...

Paradoxical undressing is known not to have happened.





Quote

Plus, I'd recommend anyone interested to look into the entire area.  It's probably one of the weirdest places on earth.  If even 10% of the stories that come out of there are true it's a freaky, FREAKY place.

Yes.  You'll find nine people have died there more than once.


#29    IMAnonymous

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:52 AM

View PostSheep Smart, on 02 May 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

this is truly an eerie case . i may never go snowboarding at night again.not even joking.
i suspect it was foul play on the soviets part. although there was some strange eyewitness accounts to seeing lights that night from nomadic people in the nearby region.

The Mansi not only saw them, they painted them.




Quote

which leads me back to the foul play notion. peoples in those regions in russia have been killed before and after by foul play on behalf of the then soviet regime, thats a fact. because they dont have things like we do such as tvs phones newspapers,  not in the mountains because they truly live in tentlike houses, google: khanty, mansi tribes, meaning they cannot really do much about it. its not like they can go to russian authority and say they want to report weapon use by the government on the 6oclock news.

Because all nine hikers were members of the Communist Party and due to the proximity of the Mansi and a Gulag prison camp, the Communist Party sent some 41 investigators to the scene ranging from the local district attorney to a colonel in the MVD with detective specialists from Moscow attached.  They ruled out foul play by humans.  For example, it was a police laundry woman who determined the tent had been cut open from the inside.





Quote


im almost sure it was foul play. probably testing chemical and radiation . sad.

Accidental death by the Soviet military has also been examined after it was found a two stage rocket had been launched over the hikers.  However, it has since been demonstrated the hikers died about 22 hours after it passed over.


#30    IMAnonymous

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:01 AM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 02 May 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

It may seem bizarre to people still trapped in a coldwar mentality, but "Homo Sovieticus" never existed. Military tests were carried out in designated ranges (полигон - poligon), not randomly anywhere military decided... These hikers were not in any training or test area, it has never been shown to be.

This is incorrect.  The area was routinely used for testing R-5 and R-7 missiles and for (non-explosive) night practice bombing by aircraft.




Quote

The injuries are not the result of any thermobaric bomb. There is zero radiation in them,

Incorrect.  Radioactivity was found in the clothing of two of the hikers.

Quote

where was the blast pattern on the ground?

There was a burn pattern found in the trees observed by two of the investigators.  One of them wanted it included in their report as evidence the hikers were killed by an alien spacecraft (the lights).  He was overruled.






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