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Ancient sites in South America


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#31    poppet

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:40 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 March 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

Hi Poppet,

I am really glad you post all these excellent photos !! :tu:

I have some 500 of Peru/Bolivia myself, but most are of a lousy quality because I assumed it would be a good idea to take a cheap camera along (in case of theft)....and I still regret it after 21 years.

that sure is annoying ,i did the same when me and the misses back packed around Egypt ,and we were quite economical with the photo taking and that is always something i regret , nowadays with a digital camera you can just snap away to your hearts content and i did in South America i must have nearly 4000 images (don't worry mods i wont post them all lol.

before i progress to the other sites i will retread my steps and post a few more from Nazca/stone museum and Cusco .

thanks everyone for your interest.


#32    third_eye

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 March 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

The thing doesn't look anywhere near to what I saw 19 years before that photo was taken

And my camera was a very cheap and non-digital one.

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Don't get grouchy, I was just jibing ya, y'know like 'pokey pokey' ?

Great pics BTW

Mr Photo Grapher :)

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#33    Oniomancer

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:32 PM

View PostLemieux, on 23 March 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:


On a different note in S. America, what's with those mountain tops with flattened summits, and some with what looks like long carved "runways"???(I hate to use that term BTW as I don't honestly believe they were actually runways)... but 2 things interest me about them...

1- Are they actually carved/cut mountain tops?
2- Where is the material that used to be the summits??? There's nothing laying in the valleys between.

Well 3 things interest me... the third being... WHAT THE HELL?? lol

Here's one:
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Short answer, no, they're not carved. Not that way anyway. Their innies, not outies. The flat parts are the original surface. Everything else was eroded down into them. When you look at a satellite view, it becomes readily apparent that the "mountains" are actually the sides of a system of drainage channels cutting the edges of the plateau.

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#34    calaf

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:52 PM

Thanks for your photos. I'll be leaving for Peru May 1 so I am particularly interested. Although I've seen photos of these sites, it's always good to get someone else's take on the subject.
As for Brien Foerster and the AA crew, I have always believed that the value of their presentations lay not in the validity of their theories (to which I do not subscibe) but in bringing these sites to a mainstream audience. And if a little theatre is added....


#35    third_eye

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:48 PM

View Postcalaf, on 23 March 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Thanks for your photos. I'll be leaving for Peru May 1 so I am particularly interested. Although I've seen photos of these sites, it's always good to get someone else's take on the subject.
As for Brien Foerster and the AA crew, I have always believed that the value of their presentations lay not in the validity of their theories (to which I do not subscibe) but in bringing these sites to a mainstream audience. And if a little theatre is added....

more the fun the merrier for us :tu:

safe trip ... more pics :yes:

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#36    Lemieux

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:46 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 23 March 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Short answer, no, they're not carved. Not that way anyway. Their innies, not outies. The flat parts are the original surface. Everything else was eroded down into them. When you look at a satellite view, it becomes readily apparent that the "mountains" are actually the sides of a system of drainage channels cutting the edges of the plateau.

View PostOniomancer, on 23 March 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Short answer, no, they're not carved. Not that way anyway. Their innies, not outies. The flat parts are the original surface. Everything else was eroded down into them. When you look at a satellite view, it becomes readily apparent that the "mountains" are actually the sides of a system of drainage channels cutting the edges of the plateau.

Thanks for that :tu:  ... I looked it up and found this guy's response to the question:
"fissures deep within the crust rise up to form, underlining ranges. these ranges usually are very sensitive so in that general area the soil is made of mica garnet or very fragile rock structures, which if exposed to the layering atmospheres present in that region of south america, can easily carck, thus making an equally spreadout plain.....im a geologist,"

That, when I think about it, sounds like a good theory. As does yours too btw.
But when I look at that picture, I still have a hard time with it lol... I'm not advocating that it's man-made either... but it sure does look like it was cut off.
I'd love to be able to just fly there in my own plane and land on that plateau and check things out for myself.
Then I could say something with authority, like "Been there, done that" lol

Anyways, sorry for sidetracking this thread, Poppet's pics are awesome! and inspires one to want to go and visit these sites for themselves!
Cheers!


Edit: Don`t know why that double quoted...
weird
weird

Double edit: I should mention that, that guy`s explanation I quoted was about flat-topped mountains in general, not that specific site in the picture.

Edited by Lemieux, 24 March 2013 - 10:57 AM.


#37    poppet

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:49 AM

nazca

View Postcalaf, on 23 March 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Thanks for your photos. I'll be leaving for Peru May 1 so I am particularly interested. Although I've seen photos of these sites, it's always good to get someone else's take on the subject.
As for Brien Foerster and the AA crew, I have always believed that the value of their presentations lay not in the validity of their theories (to which I do not subscibe) but in bringing these sites to a mainstream audience. And if a little theatre is added....

i couldn't agree more , very well said.

more pics from nazca.

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#38    poppet

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:58 AM

more pics from the stone museum in ica ,the museum is usually closed and you have to phone the owner and pay him 30 sols.

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As you can see the museum is in chaos .


#39    poppet

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:06 PM

heres the outside of the koricancha with the Spanish church built over the top.

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here is the inside of the outside wall.

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this is the top of the same wall.

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the attention to detail from these craftsmen and that is what they are is second to none.

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#40    poppet

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:10 PM

Sachsayhuaman was supposedly completed around 1508 , that’s what all the guidebooks tell us, but The chronicler Garcilaso de la Vega who was Inca on his mother’s side and Spanish on his fathers and was born in Cusco 1536 ,had no idea who or how they were built.

This is his account;
"....this fortress surpasses the constructions known as the Seven Wonders of the World. For in the case of a long broad wall like that of Babylon, or the colossus of Rhodes, or the pyramids of Egypt, or the other monuments, one can see clearly how they were executed...how, by summoning an immense body of workers and accumulating more and more material day by day and year by year, they overcame all difficulties by employing human effort over a long period. But it is indeed beyond the power of imagination to understand now these Indians, unacquainted with devices, engines, and implements, could have cut, dressed, raised, and lowered great rocks, more like lumps of hills than building stones, and set them so exactly in their places. For this reason, and because the Indians were so familiar with demons, the work is attributed to enchantment."
You would have thought there would still have been some builders left in Cusco to tell him exactly how and when they were built, as it was only 30 years after the alleged construction.

Next I turned to the book, THE Seventeen Years TRAVELS of PETER de CIEZA, Through the Mighty Kingdom of PERU, which is one of the first recorded writings of Peru and it states throughout his entire book, that when they came to these various monuments they were all in a state of ruin.
So that’s the two earliest accounts that are available, now we move on to the present time and the latest news is that the Killke culture may have been the builders of Sachsayhuaman.

Killke culture

The Killke occupied the region from 900 to 1200, prior to the arrival of the Incas in the 13th century. Carbon-14 dating of Sachsayhuaman, the walled complex outside Cusco, has demonstrated that the Killke culture constructed the fortress about 1100. The Inca later expanded and occupied the complex in the 13th century and after. On 13 March 2008, archaeologists discovered the ruins of an ancient temple, roadway and aqueduct system at Sachsayhuaman. This find plus the results of excavations in 2007, when another temple was found at the edge of the fortress, indicates religious as well as military use of the facility.

http://www.cusco.eu/...e-of-cusco.html

And the lead archaeologist Oscar Rodriguez had this to say.

http://www.msnbc.msn...l/#.UMoDV3eQT0Q

On the 20th December 2012 a Killke structure is reported to have been discovered but as you can see in the link the structure is pretty basic.

http://www.laht.com/...ategoryId=14095

Just because they have a c 14 date of 1100 AD for people residing at Sachsayhuaman it doesn’t necessarily mean that it was constructed at that time or by them, so the search continues.

When you go to Sachsayhuaman you always picture the fortress/temple or ceremonial centre (delete where necessary) but on the other side is a place called Rodadero (sliding place) which is a fascinating place.

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This is called the Inca throne, purpose unknown.

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This place is huge with many different building styles and still lots more to be re discovered

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#41    Abramelin

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:39 PM

View Postpoppet, on 24 March 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

As you can see the museum is in chaos .

It was already in chaos 21 years ago, lol.

Javier Cabrera just stacked all he could buy from the locals on the shelves in what he called his museum.

If only he had known these locals saw him as a source of money.

In 1991 the country was in chaos because of the Sendero Luminoso and the corrupt government, police and army, and 85 % of the population lived in poverty. So selling 'ancient artifacts'  to Cabrera was an easy way to earn a buck or two, And he gobbled it all up, hook line and sinker.

Back then you had no idea whom to trust, and people advised you to look over your shoulder every minute to check if someone was following you.

I still can't walk outside without checking if anyone is walking behind me.

Poppet, are you still in Peru? If so, do you plan to visit Arequipa?

You know why I ask.

And you won't regret it anyway: I fell in love with that old city (and with a woman, heh).


#42    poppet

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:05 PM

Cutting out alcoves and seats seemed to be just done randomly and this is found at many sites these are at Sachsayhuaman.

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#43    poppet

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:09 PM

Chinchero

The stonework here is neat random work, but nothing like we see in Cusco

Regretfully, as in most of the towns or temples near Cuzco, Chinchero was wrecked and modified by the "idolatries extirpators". Its destruction began when Manko Inca after his campaign in Cuzco decided to discharge his soldiers so that they could go back to their farmlands and take care of their families; he went towards Ollantaytambo passing through Chinchero and burning it so that the invaders who were persecuting him could not have either food or lodging. Subsequently in 1572, Viceroy Toledo founded the "Doctrine of Our Lady of Monserrat of Chinchero" and ordered construction of the present-day Catholic Church that was finished by the first years of the XVII century; possibly in 1607, that is the year found in the writing over the main arch inside the church. The whole church was built using as foundations the finely carved limestone that belonged to a great Inca palace. The entrails of the fine Inca building were filled up as high as the roofs with earth brought from some other sectors. It was in the 1960s when the Incan palace was discovered under the Catholic Church. The Incan palace must have been very important because on its facade facing to the southern plain presents openings of triple jamb that by themselves indicate its category.

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Evidence of re cycled material is evident.

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Clearly we can see substantial weathering on these re used coping stones.

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the labour involved in the construction of the terracing boggles the mind especially when this work has all been attributed to Tupac Yupanqui (1471-93) who incidentally spent most of his reign expanding the inca empire as far north as Quito, the capital city of Ecuador .

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#44    poppet

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:11 PM

more strange rock carving at Chinchero.



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more seemingly random stone carving

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steps leading nowhere

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#45    poppet

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:14 PM

Ollantaytambo

Ollantaytambo is located about 50 miles north of Cuzco, the capital of the Inca Empire, at about 9000 feet above sea level. The site was first a royal estate for the Inca Pachacuti, between 1437 and 1471, who apparently destroyed a previous town to build his residence.
This again depends on what guide book you read, as there are many interpretations and that’s all they are, on one hand you have the Spanish version written by Pedro de Cieza de Leon first published in 1554 or you can have the Inca version Royal Commentaries of the Incas by Garcilaso De La Vega El Inca written in the early 1600’s but had to go through the Spanish church censors which apparently only took five years.
In all the literature written over the past 500 years, nobody has any real idea of how and who built this place. I’ve read that it was also built by the first age, whatever that means, by giants or was never finished again this all depends on which book you invest in.

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These images give you a sense of the scale of the site.

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This image was taken on one of three rest stops just to get to the top (lack of oxygen) and you can see the alleged carving of virocoucha in the top left hand corner and a grain store to the right.


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Natural looking to me but I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder.


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close up of the grain store .


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Right at the top we are introduced to some huge stone blocks and magnificent stone work.

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