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Man invented religion


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#16    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 10:57 AM

It's kinda interesting that criminals tend to be very religious, in a dumb, superstitious sort of way, while atheists tend to be moral and honest and kind people in an intelligent sort of way.  

I think some people need religion to do what is right, and as a result they assume that is the everyone is.  The fact, however, is that there are others who do what is right simply because it is right, and don't need the religious threat.


#17    Royal

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:39 AM

View PostDarkwind, on 25 March 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Sure most religions provide a moral code, some are good, but it can be rather spotty.  Is it moral to put someone to death for being gay or someone accused of witchcraft?  (Still going on in many parts of the world.)   I think the Greeks and philosophers of the Age of Reason were on the right track of using reason rather than religion as a base for morality.  I am part of a religion, I'm  a Pagan. My moral base is not the same as Abrahamic religions. It is more related to ethics and reason than it is to rules given by a god (humans) 3000 years ago. My Father was an atheist and didn't use religion to teach me right from wrong. He used reason. Because he taught me to reason there are many things ideas my Father ascribed too that I don't.  That is how I taught my kids. I think it works better than brainwashing the sky god is going to send you to hell it you don't behave.
    I agree these things happen in the name of religion,what I'm saying is that they are not exclusive to religious thought. Plenty of crimes against humanity have occurred in the name of reason.Hitler's reason for genocide was he needed someone to blame for Germany's troubles after WW1,that and he wanted to create a perfect Aryan race.Would things have went completely different had Hitler grown up religious? Maybe, maybe not.

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#18    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:43 AM

Hitler does not strike me as having been a religious man; superstitious to be sure, but not pious in any sense.  More the opposite.


#19    Royal

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:16 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 March 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Hitler does not strike me as having been a religious man; superstitious to be sure, but not pious in any sense.  More the opposite.
    That's my point,Hitler was not a religious man.Would things have went differently had he had a religious upbringing. And while we're at it how about Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot.

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#20    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:23 PM

I'm not sure what your point is; it can be argued that Communism as it was back then was a sort of religion -- in fact a Christian cult.  It has the apocalyptic and historic world view of Christian Europe, the social utopianism and egalitarianism, and the sense of the inherent evil or sinfulness of humanity -- all subconsciously derived from Christian thinking that Marx grew up in.


#21    Junior Chubb

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:33 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 25 March 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I agree where did the laws of moral behavior that we are judged on , do not kill ,steal, cheat, or lie come from, if not from religion.

I agree with this, religion has given us the basis that our civilisation is built on, as we move forward if these morals are passed on through education we no longer need religion. There is also a line of thinking that suggests we never even needed religion for this though. Communities where members respected each other flourished and through natural selection a system of respect and morals grew regardless of religion.

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

It's kinda interesting that criminals tend to be very religious, in a dumb, superstitious sort of way, while atheists tend to be moral and honest and kind people in an intelligent sort of way.

I think this is a media fallacy rather than the truth, even though you may have experienced it yourself it reminds me of one of those 'my grandma smoked 40 a day and lived to be 100' stories, true to your own experiences but not true in general.

View PostRoyal, on 25 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

That's my point,Hitler was not a religious man.Would things have went differently had he had a religious upbringing. And while we're at it how about Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot.

If Hitler was a religious man (I guess you mean he had a mindset based more on morals) he never would have reached the position of power that he held.

Edited by Junior Chubb, 25 March 2013 - 12:33 PM.

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#22    notoverrated

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:53 PM

i think if you tell a idea to 1000 people at least 800 will misunderstand you.

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#23    GreenmansGod

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:16 PM


Quote

Unfortunately, it does not go without saying that in our examination we must avoid the fallacy that in the last decades has frequently been used as a substitute for the reductio ad absurdum: the reductio ad Hitlerum. A view is not refuted by the fact that it happens to have been shared by Hitler.

http://www.fallacyfi...g/adnazium.html

I actually read "Mein Kampf"  I don't know if he was but there was a lot of references that were pro Christianity in it.  He was a politician and sadly like so many American politicians he knew how to pay the religion card.   I am amazed how many people get sucked into voting some crook into office because of his or her supposed religion. He was raised in a Catholic house hold, does that mean anyone who is raised in a Catholic house will turn into a Hitler.  Is that not the same fallacy as saying he was an atheist therefore all atheist are Nazis or Communist.  Guilt by association doesn't fly well in a good debate.

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#24    Royal

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:17 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 March 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I'm not sure what your point is; it can be argued that Communism as it was back then was a sort of religion -- in fact a Christian cult.  It has the apocalyptic and historic world view of Christian Europe, the social utopianism and egalitarianism, and the sense of the inherent evil or sinfulness of humanity -- all subconsciously derived from Christian thinking that Marx grew up in.
    Communism was not and is not a Christian cult,you're reaching.If Marx was Christian it did not translate into his philosophy.The point is this,you cannot blame the ills of society on the belief in a diety. You can trace most of societies problems to these sources: Money...Power....Greed.

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#25    libstaK

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:23 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

It's kinda interesting that criminals tend to be very religious, in a dumb, superstitious sort of way, while atheists tend to be moral and honest and kind people in an intelligent sort of way.  

I think some people need religion to do what is right, and as a result they assume that is the everyone is.  The fact, however, is that there are others who do what is right simply because it is right, and don't need the religious threat.
That is a huge generalisation you are making there.

Here is a list of 10 people who have given Atheists a bad name too ...

http://listverse.com...ism-a-bad-name/

Alfred Kinsey - Biologist and Pedophile
Napoleon Bonaparte
Thwan Shwe - Military Dictator, Burma
Kim Jong Il
Jeffrey Dahmer (claims to have discovered religion in prison by some accounts but not before)
Jim Jones (I disagree with this one actually) but the quote says that:
He said that he “took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism”. In 1978, 909 people at the restricted communist “sanctuary” he presided over in Jonestown, Guyana, committed “revolutionary suicide” at his command.
Benito Mussolini
"he tried to associate Fascism with Catholicism in order to garner dwindling support (however his widow made it clear that he was still staunchly atheist)."
Mao Zedong - Leader Communist Party China
"He also targeted anyone with links to the Chinese Nationalist Party as well as anyone who posed a threat to him. Five million were executed in death camps. 36 million were persecuted and tortured. There were even instances of cannibalism."
Pol Pot
Joseph Stalin

Oh and there is this guy: Israel Keyes, Serial Killer who committed suicide and an atheist.

http://www.examiner....er-offs-himself

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In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#26    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:26 PM

View PostRoyal, on 25 March 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Communism was not and is not a Christian cult,you're reaching.If Marx was Christian it did not translate into his philosophy.The point is this,you cannot blame the ills of society on the belief in a diety. You can trace most of societies problems to these sources: Money...Power....Greed.
That Marx came out of a Christian milieu is obvious enough, and that many of his assumptions about the world are Christian is well understood.  That he was anti-Christian is also plain, much as one Christian cult denounces another, he also picked up Christian intolerance.

I repeat, most atheists are very moral people.


#27    libstaK

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:28 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 March 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I'm not sure what your point is; it can be argued that Communism as it was back then was a sort of religion -- in fact a Christian cult.  It has the apocalyptic and historic world view of Christian Europe, the social utopianism and egalitarianism, and the sense of the inherent evil or sinfulness of humanity -- all subconsciously derived from Christian thinking that Marx grew up in.
All you are saying here is that if it's not religion, then it will be another idea that mankind will sell in place of religion to control the masses.  It is not belief in God in and of itself that has ever been the issue, it is the use of people's belief of God to lead them around by the nose that is at the heart of the issue.  Ergo, the true issue is that history is filled with the "Art of the Conman", and the better someone is at selling an idea, the more power and riches he can attract to himself.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#28    libstaK

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:30 PM

View PostRoyal, on 25 March 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Communism was not and is not a Christian cult,you're reaching.If Marx was Christian it did not translate into his philosophy.The point is this,you cannot blame the ills of society on the belief in a diety. You can trace most of societies problems to these sources: Money...Power....Greed.

Exactly :yes:

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#29    GreenmansGod

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:34 PM

And I could dig up a 100 people who give religion a bad name. So...?

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#30    Royal

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:36 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 25 March 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:


I actually read "Mein Kampf"  I don't know if he was but there was a lot of references that were pro Christianity in it.  He was a politician and sadly like so many American politicians he knew how to pay the religion card.   I am amazed how many people get sucked into voting some crook into office because of his or her supposed religion. He was raised in a Catholic house hold, does that mean anyone who is raised in a Catholic house will turn into a Hitler.  Is that not the same fallacy as saying he was an atheist therefore all atheist are Nazis or Communist.  Guilt by association doesn't fly well in a good debate.
   You are missing the entire point.The OP blames religion for everything that goes wrong,which is silly.I'm not saying all athiests are Nazis or Communists,rather all Nazis and Communists are athiests.I have no guilt,I'm not religious.

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