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Man invented religion


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#31    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:49 PM

Certain kinds of religion -- the ideological or cultic kind -- the one's who say, "I am right and everyone who disagrees is evil" -- are the cause of a lot of problems, and this includes religious ideologies like some flavors of Communism and Fascism.

Atheists don't need God or some ideology to do what is right and be moral people.  I rather took the devil's list above as an attack on atheism that went too far.


#32    GreenmansGod

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:59 PM

View PostRoyal, on 25 March 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

   You are missing the entire point.The OP blames religion for everything that goes wrong,which is silly.I'm not saying all athiests are Nazis or Communists,rather all Nazis and Communists are athiests.I have no guilt,I'm not religious.

Your missing my point, when you bring up Hitler and the other world jerks in a discussion you are opening up a Logical Fallacy of "guilt by association." Take a class in Logic and learn the fine art of being a smart a** like me.

View PostRoyal, on 25 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

That's my point,Hitler was not a religious man.Would things have went differently had he had a religious upbringing. And while we're at it how about Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot.

Sorry man, but Hitler had a religious upbringing. So your argument  mote.

Edited by Darkwind, 25 March 2013 - 02:05 PM.

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#33    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:01 PM

Most of those chaps had a religious upbringing.  Maybe all of them.


#34    GreenmansGod

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:03 PM

oops  goof up.

Edited by Darkwind, 25 March 2013 - 02:04 PM.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#35    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:10 PM

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View Postdocyabut2, on 25 March 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I agree where did the laws of moral behavior that we are judged on , do not kill ,steal, cheat, or lie come from, if not from religion.

Common sense, it was around before religion.

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#36    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:19 PM

It is possible to construct ethical systems out of fundamental principles (axioms) that do a better job than anything in any of the religious traditions.  I would mention the three that I tend to pay attention to most -- that of the various flavors of utilitarianism, Kant's ethical imperative, and the Confucian system.

As religious systems go, that derived from Buddhist compassion works without a god too.


#37    libstaK

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:25 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 25 March 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

And I could dig up a 100 people who give religion a bad name. So...?

The list of immoral atheists was in response to this quote below from Frank Merton:

Quote

It's kinda interesting that criminals tend to be very religious, in a dumb, superstitious sort of way, while atheists tend to be moral and honest and kind people in an intelligent sort of way.

Exactly, how would you read this

criminals = religious, dumb, superstitious
atheist = moral, honest, kind and intelligent

If you think that is a fair assessment, I have misjudged you.

Edited by libstaK, 25 March 2013 - 02:30 PM.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#38    Royal

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:55 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 25 March 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Your missing my point, when you bring up Hitler and the other world jerks in a discussion you are opening up a Logical Fallacy of "guilt by association." Take a class in Logic and learn the fine art of being a smart a** like me.


Sorry man, but Hitler had a religious upbringing. So your argument  mote.
By bringng up these"world jerks" I was making the point that these men did what they did outside of religious morals.The question I asked in my post was "would things have been different" not that things would have definitely been different. I could'nt care less if any of them aspired to be the Pope at one time.The world is not perfect but religion is not the main culprit.

Edited by Royal, 25 March 2013 - 02:59 PM.

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#39    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:09 PM

Is there anything inaccurate about what I said?  I said nothing about religious people in general.


#40    libstaK

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:28 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 March 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Is there anything inaccurate about what I said?  I said nothing about religious people in general.
Hmmmm, you know most days you make alot of sense, but I think you need to read what you wrote and decide, not if it was accurate but if it was fair to tilt the scales the way you did there.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#41    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostRoyal, on 25 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

That's my point,Hitler was not a religious man.Would things have went differently had he had a religious upbringing. And while we're at it how about Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot.
Stalin had begun training to be a priest before he became a gangster and then a revolutionary. It has been public knowledge since end of Soviet Union that he secretly attended a chapel in the Kremlin  during the war. During battle of Moscow in 1941 he had a plane constantly circling Moscow with an ikon on board. At the time this was kept secret. Judge if Stalin was an atheist or believer by what he did in private, what he did that he did not have to do, except by his faith. Hitler was raised as a Catholic, so it would have some bearing on his outlook, he could only be judged as an atheist if he had been one from birth, no matter what he thought, residues of religion would have remained. Lenin was probably the closest to being a true atheist, and as for Mao, I have no idea.


#42    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:49 PM

View PostlibstaK, on 25 March 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Hmmmm, you know most days you make alot of sense, but I think you need to read what you wrote and decide, not if it was accurate but if it was fair to tilt the scales the way you did there.
I said it the way I said it carefully; I think perhaps you have a sensitivity here that I may have touched.


#43    libstaK

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:52 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

I said it the way I said it carefully; I think perhaps you have a sensitivity here that I may have touched.
You tilted the scales in favour of atheism, that's not due to any sensitivity of mine.  If you had said it in reverse, I would have posted 10 people that make Religions look bad.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#44    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:53 PM

I don't think Stalin was religious.  I think he was a sociopath playing Pascal's Wager.


#45    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:55 PM

Well of course I favor atheism; I think it works better ethically and that most atheists are more moral and less hypocritical than most religious types.  If I thought otherwise I'd join a church.





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