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A Proof That God Exists


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#226    Jor-el

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:49 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 10 April 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

You, because you are basing your so called 'odds' on a bunch of assumptions. The main assumption being that those constants could be different anyways. We don't know this, the only observation we have is of those constants being what they are.

It does not require a multiverse. Only for infinity to exist, and probability to exist outside of the universe as we know it. Infinity is a mathematical fact, and probability is an observed, verified phenomenon. God is not. For example we do not know if the quantum foam exists only in the universe or outside it as well. We don't know if our universe has a boundary. It could be that our universe is infinite in all directions. It could be that big bangs happen because of random chance in the quantum foam every 10^2000 years of our time, even in that event, our existence is an eventual certainty- given the one assumption- that infinity exists in time and space.

Assumptions that I share with the very scientists who calculated those odds, I'm in good company thanks.

And you know infinity exists because you can concieve of it, but does it mean that it actually exists?

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#227    Jor-el

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:50 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 10 April 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

You have evidence for the universe being an amazing, precision tool as it were. That does not mean that God created it, or that it was designed. Although I like the idea that it was! Its just a belief, no more valid than any other person's belief in the non-existence of God.

And besides, adding God into the mix is not adding cards to the table? There are untold numbers of cards that we have not even discovered yet. Your calling the fine tuning evidence for God is like me saying that because I got dealt 4 Aces in a hand at one time it must be a miracle, but without even knowing what cards or how many cards are in the deck.

A precision tool needs someone to make it... you won't find it in nature.

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#228    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:28 PM

View PostJor-el, on 10 April 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

And the probability of either happening by natural means (coincidence) is more improbable than the appearance of a flying pink spaghetti monster in your living room from spontaneous creation.

I way I see it, is if people say God can be the primal cause, Im saying the M-branes in M-theory is the primal cause, it always has been, and is the primal cause for all BBs. In this case, the amount of BBs happening is infinite and probiliblity of a habbiable universe is certain.

Although I do not fully 100% convience on the M-theory however the cause is still the same.

Watch this space

#229    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:32 PM

View PostJor-el, on 10 April 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

A precision tool needs someone to make it... you won't find it in nature.

we find it in nature all the time, you are just putting God to it.

Watch this space

#230    Jor-el

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:34 PM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 10 April 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

I way I see it, is if people say God can be the primal cause, Im saying the M-branes in M-theory is the primal cause, it always has been, and is the primal cause for all BBs. In this case, the amount of BBs happening is infinite and probiliblity of a habbiable universe is certain.

Although I do not fully 100% convience on the M-theory however the cause is still the same.

Ánd you prefer this supposition even knowing that it is no better than saying God did it. I completely understand why you would choose that position. God forbid that "God" actually could exist.

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 10 April 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

we find it in nature all the time, you are just putting God to it.

Demonstrate please with real examples...

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#231    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:12 AM

View PostJor-el, on 10 April 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

Ánd you prefer this supposition even knowing that it is no better than saying God did it. I completely understand why you would choose that position. God forbid that "God" actually could exist.

Yes I choose this position, as agreed is no better than saying God did it, however I have chosen this postion just as you have choosen yours.

And just for reference I do consider god to be real (notice little g as i do not beleive in a GOD eg Primal Cause)

View PostJor-el, on 10 April 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

Demonstrate please with real examples...

I have given my reasons why a precision tool doesnt require a maker as above, therefore The observable universe... is a real example.

Edited by The Id3al Experience, 11 April 2013 - 02:13 AM.

Watch this space

#232    conspiracy buff

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:01 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 10 April 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

That is your opinion. Just because you have faith in something or believe in something does not make it objectively true. The cult members in the Heavens Gate cult believed that an alien mother ship that was following some comet would take their souls away to heaven so they killed themselves. Just because they had faith in it, does that then make it true? I don't think so.

Comparing faith in God and Heaven's Gate are two ENTIRELY different things that have no correlation or relation whatso ever.  An alien mothership and God aren't exactly the same thing.  But, I do find it amusing how a few people on these forums like to quote someone, parody their belief systems[implying they are wrong], and then assert their belief systems as the only viable ones.  I believe there is a God because of all that is in existence.  You obviously do not which is your OPINION.  

There is a grain of truth in every conspiracy known to man, you just have to be intelligent enough to find it.

#233    Zaphod222

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:20 PM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 26 March 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:


Third, you proved my point that your position is not rational, it is volitional. If you were rational you would be open to all possibilities, at least to those that could be supported by evidence.


But you have not shown any evidence. Case closed.

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#234    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:27 PM

If the universe really, truly is flat (and the evidence sure points that way), then there is a concluson no one seems willing to deal with.  Not only is it infinite, but it always has been infinite.  Even the kernel that stared out the big bang was infinite in volume.  All that has happened is that space has been created pushing the particles of the universe further apart into lower densities, but the total volume was and is endless.

We picture the big bang starting out as an extremely small little bit of immensly dense and hot stuff, but that is not what the big bang was.  All that tiny bit was is what has become the universe we can see.  In a truly flat big bang there would be no edge and with no curvature that means infinite from the get-go.  There is an infinity of stuff, and it doesn't expand exactly -- it just gets less dense as space expands and things become further apart.


#235    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:29 PM

View Postconspiracy buff, on 11 April 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Comparing faith in God and Heaven's Gate are two ENTIRELY different things that have no correlation or relation whatso ever.  An alien mothership and God aren't exactly the same thing.  But, I do find it amusing how a few people on these forums like to quote someone, parody their belief systems[implying they are wrong], and then assert their belief systems as the only viable ones.  I believe there is a God because of all that is in existence.  You obviously do not which is your OPINION.  
Why do believers think they have to use larger typefaces than the rest of us?  It looks childish.


#236    Einsteinium

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:01 PM

View Postconspiracy buff, on 11 April 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Comparing faith in God and Heaven's Gate are two ENTIRELY different things that have no correlation or relation whatso ever.  An alien mothership and God aren't exactly the same thing.  But, I do find it amusing how a few people on these forums like to quote someone, parody their belief systems[implying they are wrong], and then assert their belief systems as the only viable ones.  I believe there is a God because of all that is in existence.  You obviously do not which is your OPINION.  

Exactly! It is my opinion! Just like your belief in God is your OPINION and nothing more. It is no more valid than my opinion. Thank you for accepting the point I was making :)

By the way I have not stated whether or not I believe in God, you just assume that I don't because I am willing to question.


#237    Einsteinium

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:08 PM

View PostJor-el, on 10 April 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

Ánd you prefer this supposition even knowing that it is no better than saying God did it. I completely understand why you would choose that position. God forbid that "God" actually could exist.



Demonstrate please with real examples...

Real examples...hmmm well lets see. The universe. Every living creature. Every solar system in the universe. Every star, every black hole, atoms, molecules. These are all examples of precision 'machines' in nature. Out of apparent chaos arises order. Beautiful and amazing. Is it God who did it? If there is God, why did he do it? What is the purpose? Are there laws that simply lead to it? If there are laws why are the laws what they are? If it is only laws that lead to it, is there a purpose? What is the purpose?

So many questions! Brought to you by philosophy and science!


#238    Jor-el

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:11 PM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 11 April 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

Yes I choose this position, as agreed is no better than saying God did it, however I have chosen this postion just as you have choosen yours.

And just for reference I do consider god to be real (notice little g as i do not beleive in a GOD eg Primal Cause)

Fair enough I can live with that statement, each of us is making a choice according to the information we have.

Quote

I have given my reasons why a precision tool doesnt require a maker as above, therefore The observable universe... is a real example.

Here I have to disagree... when asked to give examples that demonstrate the subject one does not use the subject of the discussion as an example.

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#239    Jor-el

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:29 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 11 April 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Real examples...hmmm well lets see. The universe. Every living creature. Every solar system in the universe. Every star, every black hole, atoms, molecules. These are all examples of precision 'machines' in nature. Out of apparent chaos arises order. Beautiful and amazing. Is it God who did it? If there is God, why did he do it? What is the purpose? Are there laws that simply lead to it? If there are laws why are the laws what they are? If it is only laws that lead to it, is there a purpose? What is the purpose?

So many questions! Brought to you by philosophy and science!

Oh and why are those items, examples of precision "machines" (which they are not, a machine is manufactured, made or designed)?

Each of those systems mentioned, are not machines, they are interlocked reactions subjected to the laws of physics. You strike a match and it burns, if it is wet, it doesn't. Hydrogen and oxygen, produce heat and water in combustion, which is merely a chemical reaction based on those same laws.

Just like we only exist because the universe is old enough at this time to be producing population I stars, wheras the very 1st generation of stars (population III stars) had no other elements besides helium and hydrogen. Ours has a relatively large ammount of heavier elements than the older original stars, most of whom are gone now in supernovas, fusing the lighter elements in to heavier and heavier elements with each generation.

I'm afraid that to call something that is merely following the established laws of physics and chemistry (like a fire or a river flowing downstream) a "precision machine" is erroneous.

Those questions you ask are the questions science is asking, and they are good questions, we can, as I said earlier ask the why and the how, the answers will provide 99% of our knowledge, we don't have to deny God for science to work. The only question that is answered by "God", is the who.

Edited by Jor-el, 11 April 2013 - 05:30 PM.

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#240    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:58 PM

I'm going to ramble a little here, but I hope some of you will stick with me cause I do have something to say.  That all this doesn't prove the God of Abraham etc., exists is clear enough; if He were responsible for all this why didn't he mention it anywhere?  (Of course that's a little trite, how would the Hebrews have had any idea what he was talking about, but Job does seem to otherwise present a chance to mention relative forces and eons of deep time.  After all, the Hindus and Buddhists and Zoroastrians came up with such ideas.

It does, however, seem to indicate either design or great coincidence, but neither requires intelligence.  Natural processes can produce wonderful design, as can mind that does not exist with thought (I'm getting Taoist here, one of the things that makes me sometimes not such a good Buddhist -- the Buddhist does not concern himself with where in the sky the moon might happen to be).  If the Tao is, then all this makes perfect sense, as does human mind and intelligence and the sentience of the flatworms.  Indeed, even existence as opposed to nothingness makes sense.  Now the last thing a Taoist will admit is that his belief makes sense.





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