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A Proof That God Exists


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#316    Einsteinium

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:59 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 April 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

So since neither view is verifiable one cannot say that one is superior to the other, in fact the the choice of one over the other is simply a matter of belief.... in which case you guys in the opposition cannot stte that our side is wring, which pretty much sums up what many are doing here on this thread.

I am not trying to 'prove you wrong'. I am only trying to counter-balance your views, as both of the viewpoints are equally probably in my mind, and therefore should be equally represented and equally debated.


#317    Einsteinium

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:01 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 20 April 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

It is not demanded of you to believe in a Creator but just to leave the option open as a probability. As you say nobody is sure of anything. But about the "tons of evidences
you claim for quantum physics I wonder why Einstein never lost a minute of life to check them out. On the contrary, he criticized them as "God does not play dice." And you do not have to think that "Satan is inside you." I don't believe this nonsense either. I just mentioned it as a joke.

Ben

You are right, Einstein hated the very ideas of quantum physics that he discovered. He worked tirelessly to disprove it and come up with something that in his mind would make more sense. He failed, and after his death his initial ideas about quantum physics were proved correct as new technology and measurement capability was invented that allowed his theories to be tested.

Edited by Einsteinium, 22 April 2013 - 05:01 PM.


#318    Ben Masada

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:05 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 21 April 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

Sigh.....another man of religion trying to lump all atheists together basically saying that we atheists don't leave open the possibility of a god, or "creator"  if you like that term better.

I am an atheist (and damn proud of it.....does that make me arrogant)?  Does your belief in a god make you arrogant? Try to look at things from our perspective. Pull you head out of your religious books and try to understand us instead of calling us arrogant for not seeing things your way. Has the idea that you could be wrong ever passed through your head?

Only absolute proof will change most atheists minds, but I do leave open the possibility however infinitesimal it might be and I personally don't know of a single atheist that completely rules out the possibility of a god.

The problem is that we atheists require proof...you know, evidence for a god or gods. So far, we haven't found anything that even remotely qualifies as evidence. Some of the religious say things like "look around, you will see evidence of god all around you". Sorry, I've been around roughly five decades and have never seen, read, or heard any argument that makes sense to me....nothing convincing at all. If you feel I am arrogant for my thoughts and are threatened by them because I can't see the logic in a god, then I truly feel sorry for you!

The bible: Written by ancient man...not inspired by god. Prove me wrong.....that's right, you can't! Nor can I prove you wrong. Will this ever sink into your head?

I still can't get past the old "Everything in existence must of had a creator" bit yet then state that god gets a pass from that rule. "He's always existed."

You know this how?

Like others have said on this thread, we are learning new facts about our known universe on a daily basis. We, as a species will never have a complete understanding of all that there is, but throwing god into the mix doesn't make sense without something other than conjecture......

Instead of all this stormy reaction you could simply tell me how something can cause itself into existence and the possibility would increase for my considering Atheism.  See, how simple? Go ahead. I am all ears.

Ben


#319    Ben Masada

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:10 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 22 April 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

You are right, Einstein hated the very ideas of quantum physics that he discovered. He worked tirelessly to disprove it and come up with something that in his mind would make more sense. He failed, and after his death his initial ideas about quantum physics were proved correct as new technology and measurement capability was invented that allowed his theories to be tested.

So Einstein's ideas about quantum physics were proved after his death. How about sharing those proofs with us? Or perhaps you want us to take your word for it?

Ben


#320    Einsteinium

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:17 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 23 April 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

So Einstein's ideas about quantum physics were proved after his death. How about sharing those proofs with us? Or perhaps you want us to take your word for it?

Ben

I had assumed that you could use Google, but anyways here are several links that explain it far better than I could explain it:

http://physics.aps.org/story/v16/st10

http://sydney.edu.au...wsstoryid=10483

http://www.pitt.edu/...pleteness/#L933

http://www.scientifi...bout-relativity


#321    Euphorbia

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:35 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 23 April 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

Instead of all this stormy reaction you could simply tell me how something can cause itself into existence and the possibility would increase for my considering Atheism.  See, how simple? Go ahead. I am all ears.

Ben

Well, I would say how did your (alleged) god cause itself into existence, but I wouldn't want you to think I was arrogant or make you feel threatened or anything.......Let me know when you have actual proof of anything pertaining to god or the creation of our universe.

Good luck with that!

Get three coffins ready.

My mistake, four coffins.

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#322    Ben Masada

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:56 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 23 April 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Well, I would say how did your (alleged) god cause itself into existence, but I wouldn't want you to think I was arrogant or make you feel threatened or anything.......Let me know when you have actual proof of anything pertaining to god or the creation of our universe.

Good luck with that!

What's the use? In this gun-shot approach between us you seem not to have enough ammunition to feedback. I gave you a good evidence but you dodged the issue. Again in case you have changed your mind. Since the universe did not cause itself into existence the Creator is implied. Don't you see a great evidence of
that fact in here?

Ben


#323    Einsteinium

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:05 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 24 April 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

What's the use? In this gun-shot approach between us you seem not to have enough ammunition to feedback. I gave you a good evidence but you dodged the issue. Again in case you have changed your mind. Since the universe did not cause itself into existence the Creator is implied. Don't you see a great evidence of
that fact in here?

Ben

All that is implied by your logic is that there was a cause. That cause does not have to be God or a creator- we do not have enough information to be able to answer this question.


#324    RockabyeBillie

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:18 PM

View Postspayneuter, on 27 March 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

I think man created God.

Man has created many, many gods. People just choose which ones they want to believe in.

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#325    Euphorbia

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:24 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 24 April 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

What's the use? In this gun-shot approach between us you seem not to have enough ammunition to feedback. I gave you a good evidence but you dodged the issue.

Ammunition?

All you've given on this thread is your opinion......and I don't think you know what "evidence" actually is.

Quote

Again in case you have changed your mind. Since the universe did not cause itself into existence the Creator is implied. Don't you see a great evidence of
that fact in here?

Ben

The creator is implied only in your mind.........do you know what facts are?......you know.....things that can actually be proven, things that stand up to scientific scrutiny. You are very liberal with the term "fact".

And again, I find it to be total hypocrisy to state that everything had to have a creator yet you conveniently leave your god out of the equation.

Who created your god? And who created your god's creator etc.

You may have those that are already religious on your side, but your going nowhere with us atheists........so why bother? I'm done with you unless you can show actual proof......no opinion....no YouTube video's, but actual proof!

Get three coffins ready.

My mistake, four coffins.

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#326    Ben Masada

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:58 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 24 April 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

All that is implied by your logic is that there was a cause. That cause does not have to be God or a creator- we do not have enough information to be able to answer this question.

And how do you call this? When you don't have an opinion of your own you discard all other opinions. What has happened to the concept of probability? Is this concept subject to preconceived notions?


#327    Ben Masada

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostRockabyeBillie, on 24 April 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

Man has created many, many gods. People just choose which ones they want to believe in.

And who has created the men who have created many gods? See what I mean now? We are back on the saddle of the vicious cycle and because of preconceived notions.


#328    Ben Masada

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 24 April 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

Ammunition?

All you've given on this thread is your opinion......and I don't think you know what "evidence" actually is.



The creator is implied only in your mind.........do you know what facts are?......you know.....things that can actually be proven, things that stand up to scientific scrutiny. You are very liberal with the term "fact".

And again, I find it to be total hypocrisy to state that everything had to have a creator yet you conveniently leave your god out of the equation.

Who created your god? And who created your god's creator etc.

You may have those that are already religious on your side, but your going nowhere with us atheists........so why bother? I'm done with you unless you can show actual proof......no opinion....no YouTube video's, but actual proof!

Very good! You talk about "actual proof of God" as if you have cornered me into a checkmate.  Whatever you mean by that I'll show you what you ask but only as soon as you show me "actual proof" of the BB. Go right ahead for I am all ears.


#329    Jor-el

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:12 PM

In order to recognize that an explanation is the best, you don’t have to be able to explain the explanation.

I have always liked the simple logic of that statement. There are only two possible solutions, either there is a creator or there isn't and what we have is a natural cause. Of the two the most elegant and the simplest explanation is that of a creator. The complicated rigmarole that is needed to justify a natural cause simply defies explanation.

Of course it is absoltutely essential (if one is to deny the simpler explanation) that any explanation that does not have a creator has to be correct.

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#330    Einsteinium

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:54 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 29 April 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

And how do you call this? When you don't have an opinion of your own you discard all other opinions. What has happened to the concept of probability? Is this concept subject to preconceived notions?

I do not discard any opinion. I treat each opinion as just as likely, but if I see one opinion being stated as truth, when there is not enough evidence to back up that assertion- I am compelled to offer the counter to that opinion so that it is also represented.





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