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Born of water


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#31    desert palm tree

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:34 AM

I lose nothing " being too long in water " and Oromo  born of water. We don't loss our conscience, soul. We are winner , not loser.
   Jonah and Jesus been in water, tomb for three days - too long isn't ?


#32    desert palm tree

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:45 AM

Egyptian queen got Moses out of water, jonah was in water, earth came out of water in creation story in Genesis I. Fish can stay long in water , but man can't stay in water. If man been in water too long , he will "loss his conscience ", he will loss his soul. But Oromo/Man  soul  is immortal. Oromo a Man of Saffu is immortal. Immortal.


#33    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 10:22 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 04 April 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

I think maybe my problem with the cliche of Christians planting seeds, about as Bible as it gets, is the idea that they are doing "God's work," saving people "for God," and so on.  This strikes me as arrogant to the point of being dangerous.  What do you do if they reject God?  Do you then continue doing "God's work" and destroy the infidels?

However, all I did was suggest he try to find something fresher: that it would be more effective.  Actually such cliches -- even the ones you cited -- are painful to hear.  Now of course a cliche to one person is an ancient word of wisdom to another -- I understand that.
What I do not understand is why, or how, words of truth or wisdom, whatever form they take, can be painful to you.

I would love to be able to get in your head and find out why you cringe at the use of cliches, while i just love them.

One man's cliche is another man's homily.

And of course you try to save people even when they dont want to be saved, but not to the extent of harming them while saving them. I once had to go out into  the local ocean at night to save a woman who was trying to drown herself. She didn't want to be saved and resisted my efforts, but i hauled her out,  literally kicking and screaming, anyway. She was suffering from postnatal depression  and is alive and happy today.  

The work of anyone who wants to get a new concept into the mind of another is very well described by the analogy of planting a seed. A very small seed in one's mind can grow into a very large and strong, and fruitful "bush", or construct, in a human mind.

There is nothing wrong with planting such a seed, in the hope the construct will grow from it. If it falls on sterile ground, it will not grow, anyway. If it is not nurtured, weeded, fertilised, loved and cared for, it also will not thrive and grow.

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 April 2013 - 10:25 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#34    Frank Merton

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:08 AM

I was born in a Catholic institution (Vietnam had them back then under French rule) and when my mother was thought about to die and my father couldn't be contacted because of wartime conditions, the nuns baptized me, there being no priest available (I suffered what is called a "grand mal" and in an infant that small it can be fatal).  (I long ago outgrew the epilepsy).

Well we all survived, and as I have the story the doctor was furious at the presumption of the nuns that my family was necessarily Catholic (which of course they were not).  However, the Church provides no way to un-baptize someone, and once a Catholic always a Catholic.

How does that affect me, as someone baptized but not raised Catholic?  I'm not sure as I've gotten differing views from different people, and of course don't much care except as a curiosity.  The nuns had committed a sin but they no doubt confessed it and got absolved.  Good for them.

This is kinda how I view this business of Christians and missionaries "planting seeds" in order to "save" you.  It is not at all comparable to saving the depressive from a suicide they will later be happy you interceded in.  If you plant seeds it seems to me you are also taking on the responsibility to make sure the baby is "raised a good Catholic," and if you are not in a position to be able to do that, then you have no business throwing around seeds.


#35    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:28 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 April 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

One man's cliche is another man's homily.

And of course you try to save people even when they dont want to be saved, but not to the extent of harming them while saving them. I once had to go out into  the local ocean at night to save a woman who was trying to drown herself. She didn't want to be saved and resisted my efforts, but i hauled her out,  literally kicking and screaming, anyway. She was suffering from postnatal depression  and is alive and happy today.  

The work of anyone who wants to get a new concept into the mind of another is very well described by the analogy of planting a seed. A very small seed in one's mind can grow into a very large and strong, and fruitful "bush", or construct, in a human mind.

There is nothing wrong with planting such a seed, in the hope the construct will grow from it. If it falls on sterile ground, it will not grow, anyway. If it is not nurtured, weeded, fertilised, loved and cared for, it also will not thrive and grow.
Hi Mr. Walker,

I can only speak for myself on this, but accepting Jesus Christ (in my heart), I feel it deep down that I'm accountable for the things I say, nowadays. It's never a cliche to be guided by the Holy Spirit, especially when one talks about one's relationship with Jesus Christ. Honesty with an element of the supernatural always has a way of breaking down the phoniness and saying it like it is. Therefore, it's the main reason for the Bible quotes because the words I say "must" reverberate His teachings since Jesus is the center of my existence. In fact, I'm guided, willingly to say those words. I suppose one should avoid a person who is entrenched in religiosity and devotion to his or her God. I wake up and sleep thinking about Jesus Christ. I have to follow my bliss, just like you follow your truths. It's definitely not being an automaton or a looping tape-recorder. Otherwise, the statements wouldn't have that impact to the listener. Honesty always comes out, for example, "I think beliefs are evil things that get in the way of clear thought," according to Frank. I would rather have honesty than a lie.

Besides, the Bible states them good and plenty. The words are music to my ears.


Peace to you, Mr. Walker.

https://www.youtube....ix3pVUX86yBWWzS  (playlist)

Distinguish between spin doctoring and truth. Keep in mind that truth is ALMOST impossible to figure out when it comes to ancient holy book.

#36    Frank Merton

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:48 AM

What is a "belief" and what is an "opinion?"  A belief is something one accepts, as it were, in one's heart, mainly because one wants to believe it while an opinion is something one accepts in one's brain because the evidence is such that one has no choice but to accept it if one is intellectually honest.

Although indoctrination can occur at any age, most beliefs are views we acquired because of childhood indoctrination, before our ability to be skeptical had matured.  Children believe what they are told, and we seem to have an instinct that reinforces these beliefs (makes us uncomfortable when we doubt them and gives us joy when we overcome our doubts) through our lives.  This is the real reason irrational religious belief is able to perpetuate itself so well, and that these religions have geographical locals (Egyptians are Muslims, Indians are Hindus, etc.)

We should look at our beliefs and discern which are based on good reasons and which are just things we've been taught.  This is difficult to do because we have this emotional link to our beliefs (probably evolved for group cohesion) and because we are not really aware of their existence -- they are like the chair we know is there but don't think about when we sit down unless there is something distinctive about it.

For example I grew up with the belief in the stupid woman in the moon holding it up (this is a Vietnamese bit) and had to realize this was just a belief without foundation that I wasn't even aware I believed until it was challenged in astronomy in college in the US (they all found this bit of folklore fascinating but I found it humiliating and quickly abandoned it as absurd considering everything else I had by then learned).  Giving up the belief caused me pain, but was forced by my intellectual integrity.

Edited by Frank Merton, 05 April 2013 - 11:50 AM.


#37    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:56 AM

Bliss is different than belief. Bliss has an element of encounter, first-hand knowledge. It's wrong to assume that all Christians base their relationship with Christ on "blind" faith (and yes, you didn't say blind faith).

Edited by braveone2u, 05 April 2013 - 11:59 AM.

https://www.youtube....ix3pVUX86yBWWzS  (playlist)

Distinguish between spin doctoring and truth. Keep in mind that truth is ALMOST impossible to figure out when it comes to ancient holy book.

#38    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 01:05 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 05 April 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

I was born in a Catholic institution (Vietnam had them back then under French rule) and when my mother was thought about to die and my father couldn't be contacted because of wartime conditions, the nuns baptized me, there being no priest available (I suffered what is called a "grand mal" and in an infant that small it can be fatal).  (I long ago outgrew the epilepsy).

Well we all survived, and as I have the story the doctor was furious at the presumption of the nuns that my family was necessarily Catholic (which of course they were not).  However, the Church provides no way to un-baptize someone, and once a Catholic always a Catholic.

How does that affect me, as someone baptized but not raised Catholic?  I'm not sure as I've gotten differing views from different people, and of course don't much care except as a curiosity.  The nuns had committed a sin but they no doubt confessed it and got absolved.  Good for them.

This is kinda how I view this business of Christians and missionaries "planting seeds" in order to "save" you.  It is not at all comparable to saving the depressive from a suicide they will later be happy you interceded in.  If you plant seeds it seems to me you are also taking on the responsibility to make sure the baby is "raised a good Catholic," and if you are not in a position to be able to do that, then you have no business throwing around seeds.
Thanks for that background.It is a bit tricky commenting on another person's real and personal life exeriences, but being as I am, I will do so anyway.

Your were 'lucky" that you did not die and that you grew out of your epilepsy.  Both of those alternate outcomes would have physically defined your life. Being baptised catholic is a little different. it is like being named by another, in that you had no say in it . As a young person it must have defined a part of your life, large or small,, but realy it is just like your name.ie A non physical limitation or label.

YOU can change your name, change your religion or give it up altogether. It is not true that being baptised a catholic makes you one for life, any more than being named at birth confers that name for your life if you do not like it.

I appreciate tha twithin your culture you may have had had less freedoms to change than within others like my own, but change is always possible even if it comes at a cost. Only you can decide what is right for you.

The nuns did what THEY thought was right for you, but as an adult only YOU can make those decisions. You do not ahve to be restricted by eithe the reality of catholicism, or the emotional and intellectual responses you have adopted to that faith.
  I am sure that, in theory you know this, but in practice you might have struggled to free your self from the effects of your infant catholicism. NO ONE is who others  desire them to be, only what they choose to be.


Why had the nuns commited a sin? Seems like they were trying to do the right thing by you, as they saw it and out of love /compassion. How can that be a sin?

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#39    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 01:18 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 05 April 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

What is a "belief" and what is an "opinion?"  A belief is something one accepts, as it were, in one's heart, mainly because one wants to believe it while an opinion is something one accepts in one's brain because the evidence is such that one has no choice but to accept it if one is intellectually honest.

Although indoctrination can occur at any age, most beliefs are views we acquired because of childhood indoctrination, before our ability to be skeptical had matured.  Children believe what they are told, and we seem to have an instinct that reinforces these beliefs (makes us uncomfortable when we doubt them and gives us joy when we overcome our doubts) through our lives.  This is the real reason irrational religious belief is able to perpetuate itself so well, and that these religions have geographical locals (Egyptians are Muslims, Indians are Hindus, etc.)

We should look at our beliefs and discern which are based on good reasons and which are just things we've been taught.  This is difficult to do because we have this emotional link to our beliefs (probably evolved for group cohesion) and because we are not really aware of their existence -- they are like the chair we know is there but don't think about when we sit down unless there is something distinctive about it.

For example I grew up with the belief in the stupid woman in the moon holding it up (this is a Vietnamese bit) and had to realize this was just a belief without foundation that I wasn't even aware I believed until it was challenged in astronomy in college in the US (they all found this bit of folklore fascinating but I found it humiliating and quickly abandoned it as absurd considering everything else I had by then learned).  Giving up the belief caused me pain, but was forced by my intellectual integrity.

Actually this is only true in part. Humans construct beliefs without any education or teaching in doing so. It is a natural part of our thought patterning and thinking process.

. So children do learn not learn to believe they are born with a mind that thinks in patterns of belief From the time it identifies Agents and mnon agents in its environment and begins atributing motivation to agents.

What they believe may be shaped by environment, but belief will occur any way. And adult humans have exactly the same propensity towards belief as  children. It is just tha  other learned thought processes and also socialised beliefs mitigate this in some people.

Modern humans are increasingly joining religious groups as adults not children, and some of the greatest increases in religion are occuring in places like china and  africawhere adults are  chosing a belie fbased life.

On present trends, 2/3 of humans will be either christian or muslim by 2050 and the number /percentage of humans  professing a religious belief will have expanded considerably.

  You have good  persoanl reasons for relying on logic and rational thinking, but religion is often the result of logic and rational thinking. Even where it is not, it fits a need created in the form of human thinking, which exists from childhood to death, and THAT is the most likely reason why  religious belief continues to grow, not because it is passed down from parents to children .

Ps I am sorry you  were embarrased by your childhood beliefs, but not surprised Ridicule of belief is   very common in some sections of society especially at university.This is less so today than it once was when i went to university as an atheist, and australia, as a  multicultural society, now has laws protecting all belief forms, including none. .
All educated people know that we live on a disc world , riding on the back of a giant turtle, swimming through the space time continuum.

Edited by Mr Walker, 06 April 2013 - 01:22 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#40    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:34 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 April 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Actually this is only true in part. Humans construct beliefs without any education or teaching in doing so. It is a natural part of our thought patterning and thinking process.

. So children do learn not learn to believe they are born with a mind that thinks in patterns of belief From the time it identifies Agents and mnon agents in its environment and begins atributing motivation to agents.

What they believe may be shaped by environment, but belief will occur any way. And adult humans have exactly the same propensity towards belief as  children. It is just tha  other learned thought processes and also socialised beliefs mitigate this in some people.
On the other hand, "Truth" is relevant today and tomorrow, not just yesterday. There will always be people who will give credence to the "Truth" via first-hand accounts w/ book knowledge to give them weight. Therefore, "Truth" has continuity. I can see why there are those who say things from the Bible are cliche. Logic dictates, however, for the unbeliever to find out what the big deal is all about.

https://www.youtube....ix3pVUX86yBWWzS  (playlist)

Distinguish between spin doctoring and truth. Keep in mind that truth is ALMOST impossible to figure out when it comes to ancient holy book.

#41    Mr Walker

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:06 AM

View Postbraveone2u, on 09 April 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

On the other hand, "Truth" is relevant today and tomorrow, not just yesterday. There will always be people who will give credence to the "Truth" via first-hand accounts w/ book knowledge to give them weight. Therefore, "Truth" has continuity. I can see why there are those who say things from the Bible are cliche. Logic dictates, however, for the unbeliever to find out what the big deal is all about.
It is kind of "weird."

Stand in the centre of a truth and you not just recognise, but understand, it. Stand outside of it and you often cannot  recognuise it, and certainly cannot comprehend it

The "gift of the spirit" is like this. Experience it, and you recognise and comprehend it. Not ever experience its power and transformative properties, and you probably will refuse to believe it even exists as a physical force.

You certainly will not be able to understand and comprehend its nature, power, abilities and potential. It is like the physical and transformative power of love, to person who has never experienced the full power of love.

Yet as far as i have experienced and understand it, the transformative and physical power of the spirit is the birthright and natural state of every human, just as that of love is. We just have to truly open ourselves to it and meet the requirements of self which enable it Ie. give up selfishness and the desires of self. Make our spirit a priority over materialism.

My wife long ago helped me appreciate one of the truths of the spirit. It is a self renewing property like love. The more you give away IN ANYTHING, from money to compassion and love, the more comes back to you.

The more power you give to others, the more you become empowered.

The more of your strength you give or lend to others, the stronger you become.

The more of your knolwedge and abilities you share, teach, and give to others, the more your knowledge and abilities grow; and so on.

Edited by Mr Walker, 11 April 2013 - 12:15 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#42    Jesus Loves Us

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:55 AM

View PostSherapy, on 03 April 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

What is this 'new' reality that you are accepting? Is this a waking up to your own sense of self efficacy? The transformation aspect doesn't make sense in practical terms for me. Thank you for answering.
Christianity isn't practical for people who are control freaks, greedy, materialistic, hateful, envious and overly skeptical of Jesus.


#43    desert palm tree

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:09 PM

Pilate question Abba mudda " what is truth ?" from thence he answered nothing, till Pilates marvel on his silence.


#44    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:25 PM

Now the way I read that is that Pilate was way to sophisticated to "mavel" on his silence.  He merely took it as demonstrating that Jesus had no answer to offer.


#45    Mr Walker

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostSherapy, on 03 April 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

What is this 'new' reality that you are accepting? Is this a waking up to your own sense of self efficacy? The transformation aspect doesn't make sense in practical terms for me. Thank you for answering.
I didnt see this post before but it connects to a point I made in another post. From outside, your description may be the only one you can see, but it is like asking a drug taker what transformation the drug creates, without taking it yourself.

They cant fully "explain" the physical and psychological transformations despite them being very rea.l Eg steroids can actualy change the body metabolism.
Other drugs cahnge the actual operation of our cognitive processes eliminating fear making us happy, less inhibited, or depressed. Some allow our mind to operate faster, others slow it down. MAny lead to mental illnesses such as schizophrenia and paranoia.
The spirit is like a physical drug and has physical effects. It is a real, powerful, and transforming energy force, which changes your physiology and your mental state or psychology.

Unlike chemical drugs it is natural; coming from within your own resources and body with ony the additional supplement of god's energy force and self awareness (which is also a natural part of being human.) It thus  has no deleterious side effects, only positive ones. It is YOU enhanced by god. Not you enhanced by chemicals.

Anyone sharing their mind and body with the spirit is so empowered and fulfilled that they realise what it means to be fully human and also they need nothing else to enhance or add to their life such as nicotine alcohol or other  mood changing drugs.
I guess it depends whether one can accept that god exists both inside us and all around us, and that we are actiually a part of god wheter we realise it or not. if you cant accpet this, it might seem like a form of possession from an external entity,  but actually it is the most natural thing in the world and exists within all of us, waiting to be  recognised and called forth.

Edited by Mr Walker, 11 April 2013 - 10:40 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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