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The Atheist Moral Argument


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#76    The Silver Thong

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 06:49 AM

View Postrrainny, on 29 March 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

Wow How do you have hope? ,,,, i'll give ya"there not such thing as Karma ,,,,It s CAUSE & EFFECT..
maybe your leaving your self in that REAL narrow place?          Like All your thoughts coming  from one place    Explore your options...****!  I was just sayin.................

Karma is not cause and effect. It`s a personal desire to harm who has harmed you.

Hope is about getting past this type of thinking.

Edited by The Silver Thong, 29 March 2013 - 06:49 AM.

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#77    Frank Merton

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:16 AM

"Luck" does not exist, nor is there such a thing as to be lucky.  What we have is probabilities, sometimes going the way we want, sometimes not.

Karma is often seen as cause and effect, and in fact is the way the Buddha expressed it.  You sow what you plant, and he took it further to mean that if you plant evil you sow evil.  I am of the opinion that this is all much of an illusion, but like many illusions is nevertheless useful as a way to think about things.  If you do evil, generally it comes back onto you, in the form of society's reaction, or maybe your own guilt, or maybe in that doing evil hardens you and changes you in ways that in the end bring on a comeuppance.


#78    rrainny

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:46 AM

K I see  where your comin' from, sorta!?  However , I do not take MY God as a BIG WHITE ELEPHANT,{ie Karma} Maybe you can take that thought and say " there is (+) & only (-) 's in,this Universe??? Copper top?   No heaven no otherness?,.... But I  Believe in One true God . /why ? are people so weird about sayin' the word GOD ???  I do not attend church...BFD!

It seems that you have a petty good head on your shoulders;so is it like , !st there was a mountain -then there is no mountain-then there is? what ever it is (or isn'what you believe...I feel that it is important that u believe in something. / this is only my 2 cents , ?with change... and I don't care to convert anyone....

Hey I would NeVer play 'the master" on any one ....cause they ALways walk behind...   not to offend ...PLease!  yes , I.ve had my glimpse as too my Mortallity........ have ya checked yours? Jut a Question...   I do agree what you take into your hands -you take into your heart . Now their are alot of Bad things happening to good people & childern / ..I feel they are blessed...  luck has no
cradintchials here .............. Ever ...
(can't spell)

Edited by rrainny, 29 March 2013 - 07:48 AM.


#79    The Silver Thong

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:55 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 29 March 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

"Luck" does not exist, nor is there such a thing as to be lucky.  What we have is probabilities, sometimes going the way we want, sometimes not.

Karma is often seen as cause and effect, and in fact is the way the Buddha expressed it.  You sow what you plant, and he took it further to mean that if you plant evil you sow evil.  I am of the opinion that this is all much of an illusion, but like many illusions is nevertheless useful as a way to think about things.  If you do evil, generally it comes back onto you, in the form of society's reaction, or maybe your own guilt, or maybe in that doing evil hardens you and changes you in ways that in the end bring on a comeuppance.

If Karma was a real thing we would have a lot less evil. Thats just my opinion. Guilt is weapon to use on others or to use on ones self. It`s about what or who that guilt comes from directed from the stigma of what guilt is and who is directing it.  I feel bad for some of my actions but I could never use guilt or Karma to explain misfortune. It`s counter preductive as I don`t know a human that has never done everything right. That would mean Karma could mean anything and to stress over it as a guilt of something does no good.

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The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?

#80    rrainny

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:19 AM

Posted Imagerrainny, on 28 March 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

Wow How do you have hope? ,,,, i'll give ya"there not such thing as Karma ,,,,It s CAUSE & EFFECT..
maybe your leaving your self in that REAL narrow place?   Like All your thoughts coming  from one place Explore your options...****!  I was just sayin.................not to offend

***********************************************************************************

silver thong ,  ,,,, .................AS FOR ME dear one. What say YOU???you said { Oh yeah*Karma is not cause and effect.

you said;
It`s a personal desire to harm who has harmed you.} humm ...a little negitive, u could have said helpin out some one that
righted you .?;****NO- that is insiigdiental.... you are wrong ...

Hope is about getting past this type of thinking.  /  * what type of thinking dear?*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You don't get my 2 cents ...or a tip or a clue.. ya think you can come chiming in dear one, and solve or prove me wrong ..
with Very Very wrong Information?
.
I wasn't talkin' to any set person ,...


normally I'd leave this type of stupidity alone .... however,   you threw it out at me  , and had nothing??????
STILL  !
   msKatie B ,
your fairy god mother,
..




!Ps are you goin to plegerize i or 2 books ????

Edited by rrainny, 29 March 2013 - 08:20 AM.


#81    The Silver Thong

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:25 AM

Can you state where Karma is a wish or a hope for anothers good fortune. I have hope for humanity just not in a supernatural way.

Karma if you do good, good will become you. If you do wrong Karma will punish you. Same old same old really. Its the golden rule. Don`t make me mad at you and I will like you lol

Edited by The Silver Thong, 29 March 2013 - 08:28 AM.

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#82    Frank Merton

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:29 AM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 29 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

If Karma was a real thing we would have a lot less evil. Thats just my opinion. Guilt is weapon to use on others or to use on ones self. It`s about what or who that guilt comes from directed from the stigma of what guilt is and who is directing it.  I feel bad for some of my actions but I could never use guilt or Karma to explain misfortune. It`s counter preductive as I don`t know a human that has never done everything right. That would mean Karma could mean anything and to stress over it as a guilt of something does no good.
Well if you avoid the Christian/Muslim notion of sin and think of good and bad as just being helpful/hurtful, one realizes that almost everything we do has pluses and minuses connected to it, so that our moral life becomes one of constantly choosing the act with the greatest good and the least harm rather than trying to choose perfection.

Now I don't think luck is real, and therefore our karma has nothing to do with whether we are born blind or some such thing.  What karma means instead is that as we do things in life the consequences come back on us, evil consequences for evil and good for good.  It also means that as we make these choices, the actual choices we make change our nature, for the better or for the worse, and if we are reborn we will take this with us.

Edited by Frank Merton, 29 March 2013 - 08:30 AM.


#83    rrainny

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:37 AM

I agree......................


#84    The Silver Thong

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:41 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 29 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:


Well if you avoid the Christian/Muslim notion of sin and think of good and bad as just being helpful/hurtful, one realizes that almost everything we do has pluses and minuses connected to it, so that our moral life becomes one of constantly choosing the act with the greatest good and the least harm rather than trying to choose perfection.

Now I don't think luck is real, and therefore our karma has nothing to do with whether we are born blind or some such thing.  What karma means instead is that as we do things in life the consequences come back on us, evil consequences for evil and good for good.  It also means that as we make these choices, the actual choices we make change our nature, for the better or for the worse, and if we are reborn we will take this with us.

What if I factor out all the above and go with out morality religion would not exsist. Humans had morals far before the invention of a god let alone religion.

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#85    Frank Merton

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:54 AM

I don't know about what early humans had or didn't have.  Morality and religion and gods are all things that have come down to us from the earliest times.

It think morality, or at least ethics, can be derived rationally from the first principles of compassion and equality, as Kant did, but do these first principles need religion?  The earliest "gods" were probably animist personifications of nature and as such had little to do with ethics, but who really knows?

Most of us seem to have an inbuilt desire or ambition to do what is right.


#86    The Silver Thong

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:12 AM

Morality in humans can almost be certian as we are still here and as a social creature. The concept of a god came with the sun, the concept of a man ruling a god came with the assumption there was one. Man created god or many gods and we speak in his or her`s or it name name knowing nothing but what I would call primates in todays terms. Gods always change, one day Thor and the next Zues then we have Jesus. We are on the verge of a god called man. So imperfect but yet the creator and killer of gods we are the gods we imagine.  How we imagine them is up to those that creat them and want to portray them.

I nore anyone has the right to defeat them but the sands in the hour glass. Sad really as we have to put up with such.

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#87    ciriuslea

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:50 AM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 29 March 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

Karma does not exsist never has never will. All it is, is a falacy that those who have done wrong will have done wrong onto them. Those that believe in Karma default as just as it`s only used as a personal type of revenge and hoping ill will. Using Karma as some means of some imagined justice is like pointing a gun at your own head and saying I`ll show you.  

Karma is left for those that hope nasty crap happens to those that wronged them so be warned believing in Karma could only come back to harm you for even believing in it.

It doesn't have to exist, and I never stated it did, the comment was in respects to the golden rule and its origins,

Edit >>>
Karma is a concept that forces you to have responsibility for your actions, the consequences don't have to be real, Its a mental process much like the golden rule, slightly different, but trying to understand how your actions impact upon others positive or negative by imagining the same or similar positive or negative action being returned imo is very similar in concept

Edited by ciriuslea, 29 March 2013 - 11:18 AM.


#88    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:21 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 29 March 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

I dont believe the bible literally but the bible is quite clear. There IS no eternal torture. There is a choce between eternal life of body and soul and  a final death of body and soul. The rest is a particular catholic construction and is not biblically based. So the god of the bible actually says, "Believe in me and have eternal life Do not beolieve in me and die "God actually says " The wages of sin are death" Nothing more. God also promises that all si will be removed from the universe. That can't be done if sinners are eternally existing in "hell"

Mathew 25:41- “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Mathew 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Jude 1:7 - "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,[a] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."

But let me guess, what you quote should be taken literally but the above is all figurative and 'metaphorical language'.  I don't have an issue with thinking that the unsaved just die, but what is absolutely false is that the bible is 'clear' on this assuming we're not cherrypicking.

Quote

But suppose you do believe in hell. Not one human has to go there. God has already forgiven every human being their original sin and wil forgive any transgression we ask him to if we are sincere. Again, it is entirely our choice as to whether we go to hell, supposing such a place does exist. NO one has to go there if they live a life which  wont send them there, and every human is capable of living such a life using christslife and teachings as a template. Because we are human god forgives our human weakness but if we choose to do wrong then we cop the consequences( in life and natural consequence and in god's system of justice)

I don't believe in hell and I don't believe in god, I'm commenting on what I think the repercussions are if I assume temporarily that certain statements by believers about what they believe are true.  I don't see 'justice' in god's system if we include eternal punishment, exactly the opposite.

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#89    Babe Ruth

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:34 PM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 28 March 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Look man. If a person can believe Book of Mormon and the scientology creation myth, he/she can believe anything. That's what terrifies me about human nature.

If he can believe in Santa Claus, Easter Bunny & Tooth Fairy, he can believe any story told.  And we are all conditioned that way from youth.


#90    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:46 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 29 March 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

I said that some behaviouralists misinterpret this and others misunderstand it. Some want to redifine the term moralities to include behaviours driven by biological and enveronmental imperatives but you cant actully do tha tand get away with it.  Such people from wah ti can  research , tend to be reacting to the american creationist movement, and responding that our behaviours are ALL a product of evolution Unfortunatley when it comes to intellectual constructs like morality or ethics this aint so while our organic brains are a product of evolution our mentla capacities are self sustaining and innovative and NOT directly resultant from evolutionary forces.

So you are a behavioralist?  What expertise do you specifically have in this scientific area, what research have you conducted?  Saying it 'ain't so' doesn't make it not so.  Please provide a scientific citation that demonstrates that our 'mental capacities are not directly resultant from evolutionary forces'.

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. BUT human morality is based on reason, rationality, choice and purpose, which other animals cannot concpetualise verbalise commuincate ot act upon. I can act altruistically with conscious understanding and intent, to a person 5000 kilometers away from me because i choose to, based on beliefs, values, intellectual reason, and rational thought

It is a matter of significant debate whether we have any more ability to make 'choices' than any other animal.

Quote

No other animals can form those concepts, understand them or act on them with conscious intent.

Scientists KNOW this is so because of their study of animal language and also of  their neurological abilities.

I think you are overstating what scientists know. There's a difference between having insufficient evidence to support a proposition and evidence that definitively shows a proposition to be false.  Please provide your evidence for the latter.  If you think that crows for example make and use tools without rational thought, please demonstrate how you've proven that humans  use an entirely different process than crows.

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All that scientists are saying is this..... That some animlas display behaviours which, in humans, we might understand are based on human moralities.  Second, that there are some behaviours with the same appearance and outcome as those driven by human morality  in MANY animals including humans, because of the common evolutionary benefits from them.

So your position is that animals can display behaviors like altruism and social cooperation but they arrived at these behaviors differently than human animals?  Quite a coincidence.

Quote

But humans ARE NOT resoricted by, or limited to, our evolved reactions and responses In ANYTHING, and havent been for over 50000 years and probably at least 100000 years.  Since that time when we  reched our current level of slef awarenes and language capabilities, we choose values, beliefs, and moralities, based on our sapient self awareness and our linguistic and mental capabilities.

No one has shown that our choices are not simply the result of deterministic physical, electrical, and chemical processes in our brains, which is what you assert is essentially going on with all other animals.  I think you are being excessive with what we 'KNOW' concerning an area of scientific research, animal cognition and intelligence, in which a lot of research is being done.  I've read nothing by any actual scientist that we can 'know' how animals think to the degree you are asserting here, quite the opposite.  Most scientists emphasize the tentativeness of their findings, which is wise given how often current scientific opinions are shown to be incorrect or need revision.  A pity that apologists do not take this same tack, especially when discussing scientific findings.

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