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Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery'

turin shroud giulio fanti

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#16    Troublehalf

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:35 AM

View Postpaperdyer, on 28 March 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

A point I forgot earlier.  The research was run in Italy.  Let's see.....where's the Vatican?

The Vatican is in Vatican City. A sovereign city state.


#17    King Fluffs

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:38 AM

Even if it was a medieval forgerie, I'm amazed how it's lasted this long.


#18    awest

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

View Postwolfknight, on 28 March 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

I think the Turin Shroud is something very special. Yes it is a hot debate on if it is real or a fake. I have read and heard stories of people touching to shroud and being healed  or found a inner peace like they never have had. If it is faith or a higher power who cares.

People touching the shroud which is sealed in an environmentally sealed container? Interesting. And the man who did the testing is a devout Catholic who states his goal was to prove that it wasn't a medieval forgery, and what do you know, he proved it.

Edited by awest, 29 March 2013 - 08:27 AM.


#19    brizink

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:24 AM

my biggest problem with this shroud is one often overlooked, jesus being bornand raised in the time he was would have adhered to a certain standard of appearance. He probably wanted people to listen to him and probably tried to keep up with his appearance, he likely had the style of a commoner and as such would have had close cropped hair and a shaven face. He wouldnt have had long hair or a beard which the face on the shroud features. in the show someone else mentioned, the computer enhanced face looked a lot like a 14th century french or italian man with hair and beard styled to match. the image was also made with a chemical reaction similar to that of a modern day strip of film that has been exposed to an image which also explains the image's lack of pigment and negative image. its a fake however creative. all that aside people also tend to overlook the fact that there are zero credible mentions of jesus in the annals of history, casting serious doubts as to a real jesus having ever existed. dont you think if jesus was going all over the sainai claiming to be god or the son of god there would have been enough people writing and making mention of him for us to have one document survive. instead we get a clever greek book featuring a man claming to be god featuring many facets of dionysius and heracles written by jews that are not wealthy but for some reason are not in israel. it all sounds so out of place and almost disrespectful to our intellegence to expect us to really believe anythin in or about the new testament. in the immortal words of my friend Alan; "i call bullsh*t"


#20    docyabut2

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:30 AM

To date the shroud to the time of Jesus and that we may have a actual artifact of Jesus is truely wonderful.


#21    highdesert50

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:09 PM

For believers, wether the artifact is true to its source or not, it provides a kind of psychological nourishment that perhaps seeing a likeness of the artifact in the clouds does. It is supportive. For nonbelievers, this artifact raises doubts about personal beliefs and instills an uneasiness resulting in cognitive dissonance. But, what I find most interesting about this controversy is the manner in which we deal with the uncertainty of our beliefs.


#22    Curley Fryes

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 04:35 PM

View Postbrizink, on 29 March 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

my biggest problem with this shroud is one often overlooked, jesus being bornand raised in the time he was would have adhered to a certain standard of appearance. He probably wanted people to listen to him and probably tried to keep up with his appearance, he likely had the style of a commoner and as such would have had close cropped hair and a shaven face. He wouldnt have had long hair or a beard which the face on the shroud features. in the show someone else mentioned, the computer enhanced face looked a lot like a 14th century french or italian man with hair and beard styled to match. the image was also made with a chemical reaction similar to that of a modern day strip of film that has been exposed to an image which also explains the image's lack of pigment and negative image. its a fake however creative. all that aside people also tend to overlook the fact that there are zero credible mentions of jesus in the annals of history, casting serious doubts as to a real jesus having ever existed. dont you think if jesus was going all over the sainai claiming to be god or the son of god there would have been enough people writing and making mention of him for us to have one document survive. instead we get a clever greek book featuring a man claming to be god featuring many facets of dionysius and heracles written by jews that are not wealthy but for some reason are not in israel. it all sounds so out of place and almost disrespectful to our intellegence to expect us to really believe anythin in or about the new testament. in the immortal words of my friend Alan; "i call bullsh*t"

I think on the same wavelength.  When I hear stories about how people see images of Jesus & the Virgin Mary in things, the first thing I thinks is......How do they know what Jesus & Mary looked like?  Nobody knows what they looked like, so how can anybody identify either one of them in anything?

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#23    Harte

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 04:37 PM

View Postciriuslea, on 28 March 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Relic-ary has been a major source of income for religious institutions for centuries..enough said
Mark Twain wrote in "The Innocents Abroad" :

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But isn't this relic matter a little overdone? We find a piece of the true cross in every old church we go into, and some of the nails that held it together. I would not like to be positive, but I think we have seen as much as a keg of these nails. Then there is the crown of thorns; they have part of one in Sainte Chapelle, in Paris, and part of one also in Notre Dame. And as for bones of St. Denis, I feel certain we have seen enough of them to duplicate him if necessary.

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#24    moonshadow60

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 04:59 PM

Sometimes you have to take things on faith alone, and I choose to believe it's real.


#25    diablo_04

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:01 AM

Even if its from the time of Jesus, its unlikely to be the shroud of Jesus.
1. I don't see a way how one face could be "printed" on a shroud in just a few days( i sleep in my sheets more than a few days and still don't see any print of my face on it).
2. In that time almost all of the men have beards so how can you tell its the shroud of Jesus.

And i wanna add why people want this to be real, if you believe in God and your faith you don't need any prof, except if you have any doughs. A religion is based of believe not on facts.

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#26    ciriuslea

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:16 AM

View PostHarte, on 29 March 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Mark Twain wrote in "The Innocents Abroad" :


Everyone on Earth should read that hilarious book.

Harte
I remember hearing something similar I think it might have been python, that there is enough pieces of cross relics to build the ark


#27    docyabut2

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:13 AM

I find the shroud very interesting, there is the debate on if Jesus did appeared in a spiritual form to some that were whitnesses to or he really did survive the cross and as some say the shroud is the resurrection. I`m Christain and to me its not why Jesus  died on the cross, or not, but that he lived to give us those messages of love and hope.


#28    Copen

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:33 PM

It is amazing how many Christians want so desperately to have some idol made of cloth, wood, metal, etc. which has not eyes to see, nor ears to hear, mouth to speak in which to reverence (worship) as though it is God (include crosses also as idols).  Christians of today are as pagan and idolatrous as Israel became in the Old Testament.

Why would God break His own commandment??? We are told in the 10 commandments that we are not to have an image of Him. Why could He leave an image of Himself and break His own commandment???

Why cling to the logic of man when it contradicts scripture???? The Bible says the nails pierced His hands (NOT HIS WRIST as the Shroud indicates). He didn't show doubting Thomas the nail scars in His wrists. Jesus showed the nail scars in His hands and His side.

Don't forget, the devil can heal and if that would sway someone to disbelieve the scriptures in a little place, he has gained a foothold that would cause you to disbelieve something else. If any of the scriptures are not true - - - - - - then all of it is false.
God bless


#29    Harte

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:37 PM

View PostCopen, on 30 March 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

It is amazing how many Christians want so desperately to have some idol made of cloth, wood, metal, etc. which has not eyes to see, nor ears to hear, mouth to speak in which to reverence (worship) as though it is God (include crosses also as idols).  Christians of today are as pagan and idolatrous as Israel became in the Old Testament.
"Today?"

Some of these cross pieces (etc.) date back to the Dark Ages.

Most Christians today wouldn't mind if the Shroud was a fake.  I think people understand that the idea of a local tradition does not trump the faith.  Centuries ago, there were a handful of these shrouds making the rounds, and if you couldn't keep your disbelief to yourself, why, you'd hang or burn.

Assuming you were lighter than a duck, that is.

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#30    Mr Walker

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 11:44 PM

View PostStill Waters, on 28 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.

Many Catholics believe that the 14ft-long linen cloth, which bears the imprint of the face and body of a bearded man, was used to bury Christ's body when he was lifted down from the cross after being crucified 2,000 years ago.

The tests will revive the debate about the true origins of one of Christianity's most prized but mysterious relics and are likely to be hotly contested by sceptics.

http://www.telegraph...al-forgery.html
This is my understanding of the most modern test results and analysis. It doesnt mean it was the shroud of jesus but it does mean it COULD have been, whereas if made in the middle ages that would have been impossible. It was certainly repaired in the middle ages, complicating the dating process.

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