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If it is possible to create a false reality


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#16    Godsnmbr1

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 12:07 PM

View Posteight bits, on 01 April 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

If this guy with plenty of time on his hands, who is paid for spining puzzles, had thought about this, and couldn't have spun it, then we wouldn't be discussing it.


Which guy?  I'm sorry, I couldn't figure out who you were talking about here.

I've gotten so out of the habit of this place that I forgot I had made this post.  Better late than never though, eh?  

A lot of you guys seem to be thinking about this in terms of simulating our universe but that's sort of missing the little picture in this problem.  We don't experience the universe.  We only experience our tiny little windows of it, and the information we're lucky enough to glean with our senses.  You need only think about what it would take to recreate an experience like ours.  Do that and you're simulating the universe, only one piece at a time.  


Quote

The hypothesis is illogical and unlikely to be true. It is remotely "possible" that it is true but certainly not probable.

Here is my reasoning. As an evolutionist i understand and acknowledge how i came to be, and how my conscious self awreness evolved to the point it is now. I know that i could  theoretically create an artifical simulationion  using technologies of the near future; BUT there is a diosconnect  between my abilty to do so given my evolved past, and the proven or even likely ability of any other sapient entity to have already done it.
  

Case in point.  I'm not quite sure what's meant by a disconnect between your ability to simulate and everyone's who has been able to simulate before you but you're acting like there's still some doubt about the inevitability of it.  It's already been done.  The only thing we're doing now is working on the graphics, and getting rid of the edge of the screen.

Remember, we are all just acting out a grand old game here, where we agree to forget who we really are, that in the remembering, that we may find each other again, and know that we are One. That All of Life, is One.

#17    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 12:34 PM

Oh I think we probably live in a simulation.  Whether its educational or for entertainment I don't know, but I suspect the first, as too often I'm not entertained.


#18    eight bits

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 12:41 PM

Quote

Which guy?  I'm sorry, I couldn't figure out who you were talking about here.

Nick Bostrom: "If it is possible to create a false reality, then we must admit that our reality is probably false." In your link, many aspects of simulation hypotheses are discussed, but Bostrom is the only person named there who offered a near-certain probablility estimate that we are simulated. The attribution is fair, IMO, he is whom I think of as the "author" of the thread title statement, or at least far and away its most active and best known proponent.

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#19    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 11:09 PM

View PostGodsnmbr1, on 06 April 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Which guy?  I'm sorry, I couldn't figure out who you were talking about here.

I've gotten so out of the habit of this place that I forgot I had made this post.  Better late than never though, eh?  

A lot of you guys seem to be thinking about this in terms of simulating our universe but that's sort of missing the little picture in this problem.  We don't experience the universe.  We only experience our tiny little windows of it, and the information we're lucky enough to glean with our senses.  You need only think about what it would take to recreate an experience like ours.  Do that and you're simulating the universe, only one piece at a time.  


  

Case in point.  I'm not quite sure what's meant by a disconnect between your ability to simulate and everyone's who has been able to simulate before you but you're acting like there's still some doubt about the inevitability of it.  It's already been done.  The only thing we're doing now is working on the graphics, and getting rid of the edge of the screen.
Just because we, as evloved beings have the capacity to create simulcra or virtual realities does not mean that we are living in one,  or even likeley to be one.

We are, as far as I know, the product of a long period of evolutionary development and at this point in time have developed the capacities to create artificial relaities.  SO? That is no reason whats over to think, suspect, or believe, that we are the product of someone esle's This is the disconnect I am speaking of One thing does not lead to the other or even the probability of the other ronly  a remote possibilty. To believe  we live in a created virtual reality is like believing in creation, and requires disregarding all the evidences we have for how we came to be here.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#20    theSOURCE

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:54 AM

A false reality -- no.

A false interpretation of reality, though sensory distortion or cognitive inability -- yes.


#21    Mr Walker

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:37 PM

View PosttheSOURCE, on 07 April 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

A false reality -- no.

A false interpretation of reality, though sensory distortion or cognitive inability -- yes.

Why label it false? As beings evolved as integrated components of reality, and connected intimately to it, our perception of reality is more likely to represent it accurately than falsely. And this allows us to live succesfully within our environment.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#22    theSOURCE

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:02 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 07 April 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

Why label it false? As beings evolved as integrated components of reality, and connected intimately to it, our perception of reality is more likely to represent it accurately than falsely. And this allows us to live succesfully within our environment.

I have had a seizure disorder for most of my life. On a few rare occasions I have experienced hallucinations while coming out of a sever seizure. During those brief moments (probably only lasting for a few seconds but feeling like hours) the world around me disappeared and was replaced with bizarre landscapes and populated with beings who could not possibly exist.

I was not experiencing them through any senses, such as seeing or touching them, yet those images were definitely in my mind.

Put another way, for a brief moment my mind believed those images to be real, but in fact, they did not exist. It was a false reality.

Edited by theSOURCE, 08 April 2013 - 03:03 AM.


#23    pallidin

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:56 AM

Given an assumption that NO-ONE knows what true reality is, it seems reasonably plausible that all of us interact with ourselves and the rest of "existance" based upon our own "dominant" perspective of "reality".

In other words, we're all confused and some dysfunctionally insane.  :w00t:

Of course, that's just my opinion, and can only speak for myself.


#24    sutemi

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:48 AM

We are not the first to ask these kind of questions the ancient Eastern Sages considered it ALL to be a dream, here’s a quote from the sage Chuang Tzu (500 BC)
“How can I tell if the love of life is not a delusion? How can I tell whether a man who fears death is not like a man who has left home and dreads returning? Lady Li was the daughter of a border guard of Ai, when the Duke of Chin first took her, she wept until her dress was soaked with tears but once she was living in the Dukes palace, sharing his bed and eating delicious food she wondered why she had ever cried. How can I tell if the dead are not amazed they ever clung to life?
Those who dream of a great feast may weep the next morning. Those who dream of weeping may enjoy the hunt the next day. While they dream they do not know they are dreaming, they may even interpret their dreams while they are dreaming.  Only after they awake do they know it was a dream. By and by there will be a great awakening, and then we will know that this is all a great dream. All the while the fools think they are awake, appearing to understand things calling this man ruler and this man herdsman! How stupid! You and Confucius are both dreaming and when I say you are dreaming I am dreaming too.” Chuang Tzu from ‘The Inner Chapters’
That’s why the Buddha said, “I am awake”.
‘Everything we call REAL is made of things that cannot be regarded as real. If Quantum Mechanics hasn’t profoundly shocked you, you haven’t understood it yet’. Niels Bohr


#25    Mr Walker

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:15 PM

View PosttheSOURCE, on 08 April 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

I have had a seizure disorder for most of my life. On a few rare occasions I have experienced hallucinations while coming out of a sever seizure. During those brief moments (probably only lasting for a few seconds but feeling like hours) the world around me disappeared and was replaced with bizarre landscapes and populated with beings who could not possibly exist.

I was not experiencing them through any senses, such as seeing or touching them, yet those images were definitely in my mind.

Put another way, for a brief moment my mind believed those images to be real, but in fact, they did not exist. It was a false reality.

Fair enough. But you were suffering from an illness and thus WERE NOT integrating with, or connecting to, your environment as we are evolved to do. Tha tis  unfortunate but an aberration from the norm.

If one's mind and body is functioning well, then one is naturally integrated into, and perceiving accurately, one's external environment. It is how we learn. Other wise we would walk into doors and off cliffs,  or continue to eat everything in front of us as babies do.

I would add that the only time   I have had such hallucinations was under very strong pain killing medication. I knew they were unreal even though i could see them, because of the context in whch they occured and I used reality checkers to test them. I treated them like any other failure of  vision, such as floaties, and just studied them as a phenomenum.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#26    Mr Walker

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:24 PM

View Postpallidin, on 08 April 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

Given an assumption that NO-ONE knows what true reality is, it seems reasonably plausible that all of us interact with ourselves and the rest of "existance" based upon our own "dominant" perspective of "reality".

In other words, we're all confused and some dysfunctionally insane.  :w00t:

Of course, that's just my opinion, and can only speak for myself.
If that was true we would perceive no common reality. Our very minds  (neurology) and our  abilties with thought and language have evolved because, as humans, we almost all perceive the same external reality in exactly the same way. (or at least in very comon ways) For example even colour blind peole share a common, if different, perception to non colour blind people.  Blind people can still feel, hear, and smell the other elements of reality, in common. Unusual occurences like synesthesia are explained by differences in human neurology.
  The reason for this is two fold. The external reality exists as it is, and we have evolved our senses and perceptions from our first origins, in order to survive within that reality.

If we were all dysfunctional, every one of us would experience both a totally different reality, and also, and more importantly, one disconnected from the physical reality around us . We would not survive.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#27    theSOURCE

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:13 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 08 April 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Fair enough. But you were suffering from an illness and thus WERE NOT integrating with, or connecting to, your environment as we are evolved to do. Tha tis  unfortunate but an aberration from the norm.

If one's mind and body is functioning well, then one is naturally integrated into, and perceiving accurately, one's external environment. It is how we learn. Other wise we would walk into doors and off cliffs,  or continue to eat everything in front of us as babies do.

I would add that the only time   I have had such hallucinations was under very strong pain killing medication. I knew they were unreal even though i could see them, because of the context in whch they occured and I used reality checkers to test them. I treated them like any other failure of  vision, such as floaties, and just studied them as a phenomenum.

I understand what you mean and I agree.

My point was only that a false reality can be created, either due to sensory distortion or mental incapacitation, regardless if it's a temporary or chronic condition.


#28    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:20 AM

Depends on what you call false.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#29    sutemi

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:42 AM

Here’s a video that I love by Alan Watts called ‘the dream of life’ quite a lovely little film imo.






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