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UK troops do the right thing


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#1    Babe Ruth

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:44 PM

http://tinyurl.com/bvlh5dl


Several British troops have now come forward with more evidence regarding torture conducted by US troops.  Stanley McChrystal implicated.

Whistleblowers of the best kind, however late.  The Guardian covers it.


#2    Coffey

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:49 PM

That is disgusting.

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#3    shaddow134

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:07 PM

As bad as it is,I can't help feeling that if the shoe was on the other foot,the Iraqis would have used just as brutal means.

C'est la Guerre.

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#4    ciriuslea

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:15 PM

Don't they torture the people they have at Gitmo....some as far as I'm aware haven't even been convicted of any crime, but its always shock horror when incidents such as the beheading of westerners a few years ago.....makes you wonder just what pushed these groups/people to want to do that in the first place ?


#5    Jeffertonturner

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:09 PM

View Postshaddow134, on 02 April 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

As bad as it is,I can't help feeling that if the shoe was on the other foot,the Iraqis would have used just as brutal means.

C'est la Guerre.
And that makes it ok? What a **** world we live in.

Curse all humans.

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#6    Ashotep

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

I don't think we should be torturing people but I'm sure they would do it to us.  Someone being tortured will tell you anything and doesn't win us any friends.

I also think gitmo should be closed and don't understand why it hasn't.


#7    shaddow134

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:00 PM

View PostJeffertonturner, on 02 April 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

And that makes it ok? What a **** world we live in.

Curse all humans.

No it doesn't make it ok,it's just the way it is.

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#8    OverSword

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:37 PM

View Postshaddow134, on 02 April 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

As bad as it is,I can't help feeling that if the shoe was on the other foot,the Iraqis would have used just as brutal means.

C'est la Guerre.
Yeah, I'm sure you're not wrong.  But as my mother was so fond of saying if all of you're friends jumped off of a building would you do it too?

I hate all of the pro torture stuff I read on UM every time it comes up in a thread. Often I'm sure by people who consider themselves Christians.  My guess is that they would have been for the brutality of the inquisition had they lived in the middle ages.


#9    shaddow134

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostOverSword, on 02 April 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Yeah, I'm sure you're not wrong.  But as my mother was so fond of saying if all of you're friends jumped off of a building would you do it too?

I hate all of the pro torture stuff I read on UM every time it comes up in a thread. Often I'm sure by people who consider themselves Christians.  My guess is that they would have been for the brutality of the inquisition had they lived in the middle ages.
I'm not pro torture,but the reality is that most if not all governments secretly use this means to extract information.

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#10    OverSword

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:49 PM

View Postshaddow134, on 02 April 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I'm not pro torture,but the reality is that most if not all governments secretly use this means to extract information.
Too true.  All of my friends who had joined up in the 70's and 80's all underwent training to resist torture for a reason.;


#11    Wyrdlight

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:54 PM

I have never really seen the point of torture as a means to garner infomation.

From accounts ive read from people who have been tortured, in the end you say anything to make the pain stop.  You say things that are not true, admit to doing/seeing things you never did or saw.  You denounce you own family, your god, your own name, anything and everything.  Nothing extracted under such stress could be taken to be true unless you could verify everything they said with additional infomation which is not always possible.

Of accounts ive read from soldiers who were tortured, such as the SAS soldiers from Bravo Two Zero, they suffered beatings, having teeth and fingernails torn out with pliers etc and most of them managed to resist saying anying more than name and rank.  Though to be honest teeth pulling etc is pretty low grade on the torture front.


#12    and then

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:19 PM

View Postshaddow134, on 02 April 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I'm not pro torture,but the reality is that most if not all governments secretly use this means to extract information.
I would add that I feel the same and that these days the moral dilemma is much more acute.  Is the life, sanity or physical health of one or a few human beings worth MORE than the lives of many hundreds or thousands?  The main problem with being dogmatically anti torture under any circumstances is that while it makes one comfortable from a moral standpoint, it is possible to condemn many innocents to death by not extracting information that could save them.  Having said this, I admit that as far as we know, no such situation has existed up til now.  But with the possibility of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons being used by a terror cell do we seriously want to choose and telegraph to them that we would NEVER do anything except ask questions of them?  I have a basic human response - if they are okay with harming my child, my family, then I'm okay with stopping them with whatever force is necessary to do it.  If that makes me immoral in the eyes of some then so be it.

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#13    Babe Ruth

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:56 PM

As for me, I'm just happy to see a few Brits step forward and do the right thing.  Better late than never.

Not many americans have done that.  A few at Abu Ghraib, and they were court martialed.  Most of the americans were enjoying the torture too much.

Perhaps these whistleblowers will make more definitive cases against Dubya and Rummy et al for their war crimes.  I hope so.


#14    minera

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:10 PM

View PostHilander, on 02 April 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

I don't think we should be torturing people but I'm sure they would do it to us.  Someone being tortured will tell you anything and doesn't win us any friends.

I also think gitmo should be closed and don't understand why it hasn't.
Who are they going to torture if Gitmo is closed? Torture is just an evil sadistic powertrip no matter who does it to whom. It desentisized the people doing the torture to human feelings.


#15    shaddow134

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:46 PM

View Postand then, on 02 April 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

I would add that I feel the same and that these days the moral dilemma is much more acute.  Is the life, sanity or physical health of one or a few human beings worth MORE than the lives of many hundreds or thousands?  The main problem with being dogmatically anti torture under any circumstances is that while it makes one comfortable from a moral standpoint, it is possible to condemn many innocents to death by not extracting information that could save them.  Having said this, I admit that as far as we know, no such situation has existed up til now.  But with the possibility of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons being used by a terror cell do we seriously want to choose and telegraph to them that we would NEVER do anything except ask questions of them?  I have a basic human response - if they are okay with harming my child, my family, then I'm okay with stopping them with whatever force is necessary to do it.  If that makes me immoral in the eyes of some then so be it.

It is indeed immoral,but as you say if it saves innocent lives then it is an evil that one must accept,as hard as it is for me to Stomach.

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