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Why most fringe theories exist.


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#1    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:14 AM

Also if you agree with the evolutionists that modern homo sapiens evolved 200,000 years back then when would suggest that civilization started?? only 5000-6000 years ago? Basically homo sapiens chilled around the globe for more then 195,000 years and all of a sudden decided to get civilised ....lol. This argument is the origin of all theories suggesting that there were many glorious ancient civilizations of which we do not have a memory and also the ancient astronaut/alien theories who flew down to Earth and gifted our primitive ancestors civilization and in some theories also genetically modified or artificially evolved our primitive ancestor into Us. These are the only two alternatives that make sense in the absence of any other mainstream suggestions..either we acknowledge that civilizations existed way before we today concede or that we were gifted civilization over very short periods of time by Gods/Aliens.


#2    aquatus1

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:36 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 April 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Also if you agree with the evolutionists that modern homo sapiens evolved 200,000 years back then when would suggest that civilization started?? only 5000-6000 years ago?


The biological evolution of Homo sapiens has no connection to the development of civilization of humans.  Complex non-instinctual behaviours are not genetically sourced.

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Basically homo sapiens chilled around the globe for more then 195,000 years and all of a sudden decided to get civilised ....lol.

As per the evidence, yep.  Not that surprising, actually; much of human social and intellectual advancement works like that.  Long lulls followed by sudden surges.

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This argument is the origin of all theories suggesting that there were many glorious ancient civilizations of which we do not have a memory and also the ancient astronaut/alien theories who flew down to Earth and gifted our primitive ancestors civilization and in some theories also genetically modified or artificially evolved our primitive ancestor into Us.

Agreed.  It is easy to see how flimsy the ancient astronaut theories are, when you realize what a shaky grasp these theorists have on human behaviour to begin with.

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These are the only two alternatives that make sense in the absence of any other mainstream suggestions..either we acknowledge that civilizations existed way before we today concede or that we were gifted civilization over very short periods of time by Gods/Aliens.

Or we recognize that humans back then were doing pretty much what humans today are doing.




For around 5000-6000 years, humans just chilled around the world.  Then, all of a sudden, they not only started flying, they took off into space.


lol.


#3    docyabut2

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:49 AM

I believe when homo sapians started growing food is when civilizations began ,banded together in groups and appointed a leader or king to give protection.


#4    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:57 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 03 April 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

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The biological evolution of Homo sapiens has no connection to the development of civilization of humans.  Complex non-instinctual behaviours are not genetically sourced.



As per the evidence, yep.  Not that surprising, actually; much of human social and intellectual advancement works like that.  Long lulls followed by sudden surges.



Agreed.  It is easy to see how flimsy the ancient astronaut theories are, when you realize what a shaky grasp these theorists have on human behaviour to begin with.

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Or we recognize that humans back then were doing pretty much what humans today are doing.




For around 5000-6000 years, humans just chilled around the world.  Then, all of a sudden, they not only started flying, they took off into space.


lol.
Biological existence of Homo Sapiens for such a long time period will impact civilizations of Homo Sapiens.
Long lulls followed by sudden changes,can explain everything in the world but what about the small things.
If Humans back then have been doing what we have doesn't it make sense to assume that they were also as advanced as we are??

Humans do go to space in todays time so may be they were going to space even in those times right??


#5    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:59 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 03 April 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

I believe when homo sapians started growing food is when civilizations began ,banded together in groups and appointed a leader or king to give protection.
But what were they doing for so long?? 1,95,000 years?? then all of a sudden we got civilization?? Look at the leaps we have made in the last 5000 years,so can you digest that we did hardly anything in 1,95,000 years?


#6    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:01 PM

Just to add to what aquatus1 was saying, it would require both a sizeable human (HSS) population as well as evidence of domesticated agricultural produce as well, to support such a proposition. Neither of which is in evidence before the start of the Holocene.

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#7    Abramelin

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:02 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 April 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

But what were they doing for so long?? 1,95,000 years?? then all of a sudden we got civilization?? Look at the leaps we have made in the last 5000 years,so can you digest that we did hardly anything in 1,95,000 years?

Let's make that 189,000 years. See other thread where you quoted from one of your posts to start this new thread.


#8    aquatus1

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:29 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 April 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Biological existence of Homo Sapiens for such a long time period will impact civilizations of Homo Sapiens.

In what way?  Any predictable way?

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Long lulls followed by sudden changes,can explain everything in the world but what about the small things.

Explain everything?  Why would it explain anything?  Long lulls aren't an explanation.  They are a behaviour.

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If Humans back then have been doing what we have doesn't it make sense to assume that they were also as advanced as we are??

Not in the slightest.  Behaviour is behaviour.  The man with the habit of picking his teeth will do so regardless of whether he is sitting at his mammoth skin hut or his 2LDK.

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Humans do go to space in todays time so may be they were going to space even in those times right??

That's not even logical, let alone reasoned.  Knowledge, technology, data, all these things are powerful due to the amassed quantity of them.  Only when you reach a certain critical level of knowledge can certain innovations be created.  Generally, once that level is reached and an innovation is produced, it inspires even more people to create new technologies as well.  Technology, however, does not arise out of thin air.  You can only work with what you actually have.  Humans, as a species, tend to be curious and aggressive, with a bit of a reckless streak thrown in there as well.  Whatever data we have, whatever knowledge we possess, we try to push it to its limits, but it does all have limits.

The Inca had the wheel, but it was of little use to them in the rocky mountains, and because it was relegated to a child's toy, it never filled its potential as it did in the Greek and Roman world.  This doesn't mean the Inca would have been incapable of creating gears or pulleys, however, it does explain why they didn't.  There simply wasn't enough of a need that could be solved through the use of wheel-based technology, even though to us modern humans, wheels are such an intrinsic part of our lives that we would see uses that the Inca never even bothered to consider.

People have habits, bodies have habits, and brains have habits.  People accustomed to thinking in one way simply don't tend to think in other ways.  It has nothing to do with lazyness, close-mindedness, or intelligence; it is just behaviour.  My brother-in-law in Kazakstan was telling me about how they used a sled at the worksite to move materials around.  He banged together a wheelbarrow out of an oildrum to make their workload a bit easier and handed it over to them.  When he came back from lunch, a small group of workers were huddled around the wheelbarrow with the welder guy, trying to figure out where to weld a flat piece of metal in place of the wheel, so they could use it as a sled.


#9    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:33 PM

Things in our history appear to be the result of thresholds being crossed -- thresholds that in some cases took a long time.


#10    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:40 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 03 April 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Just to add to what aquatus1 was saying, it would require both a sizeable human (HSS) population as well as evidence of domesticated agricultural produce as well, to support such a proposition. Neither of which is in evidence before the start of the Holocene.

cormac
And if we continue to discard all objects that do give such dates as contaminated then we can continue to suppress this theory.We have to acknowledge the possibility and then reinterpret all the evidence we have and also look for new evidence in this new light,then you will be able to see a lot of proof emerging.
Why not have proper under water archaeological studies in Dwarka,Cuba,Mahabalipuram,Yonaguni and put so many of these daunting questions to rest.If we dismiss all possible evidence or sources of evidence and never explore it citing our current beliefs then how will the proof emerge?


#11    Ashotep

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:50 PM

I think agriculture allowed the time to make advances.  If you spent all your time hunting and gathering it left little time for coming up with any new development.

Of course the aliens might of had something to do with it.


#12    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:51 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 April 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

And if we continue to discard all objects that do give such dates as contaminated then we can continue to suppress this theory.We have to acknowledge the possibility and then reinterpret all the evidence we have and also look for new evidence in this new light,then you will be able to see a lot of proof emerging.
Why not have proper under water archaeological studies in Dwarka,Cuba,Mahabalipuram,Yonaguni and put so many of these daunting questions to rest.If we dismiss all possible evidence or sources of evidence and never explore it citing our current beliefs then how will the proof emerge?

'Acknowledging the possibility' does not make something a fact. Actual evidence is what is needed for such a conclusion.

Enough is known about the Dwarka, Cuba and Yonaguni claims versus the actual evidence to effectively dismiss them as misinformation if not outright lies. This is not the basis on which something should be investigated. Actual, verifiable evidence should be what further investigation should be based on, NOT SENSATIONALISM.

In short, "Let's pretend" is not a valid argument.

cormac

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#13    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:56 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 03 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

In what way?  Any predictable way?



Explain everything?  Why would it explain anything?  Long lulls aren't an explanation.  They are a behaviour.



Not in the slightest.  Behaviour is behaviour.  The man with the habit of picking his teeth will do so regardless of whether he is sitting at his mammoth skin hut or his 2LDK.



That's not even logical, let alone reasoned.  Knowledge, technology, data, all these things are powerful due to the amassed quantity of them.  Only when you reach a certain critical level of knowledge can certain innovations be created.  Generally, once that level is reached and an innovation is produced, it inspires even more people to create new technologies as well.  Technology, however, does not arise out of thin air.  You can only work with what you actually have.  Humans, as a species, tend to be curious and aggressive, with a bit of a reckless streak thrown in there as well.  Whatever data we have, whatever knowledge we possess, we try to push it to its limits, but it does all have limits.

The Inca had the wheel, but it was of little use to them in the rocky mountains, and because it was relegated to a child's toy, it never filled its potential as it did in the Greek and Roman world.  This doesn't mean the Inca would have been incapable of creating gears or pulleys, however, it does explain why they didn't.  There simply wasn't enough of a need that could be solved through the use of wheel-based technology, even though to us modern humans, wheels are such an intrinsic part of our lives that we would see uses that the Inca never even bothered to consider.

People have habits, bodies have habits, and brains have habits.  People accustomed to thinking in one way simply don't tend to think in other ways.  It has nothing to do with lazyness, close-mindedness, or intelligence; it is just behaviour.  My brother-in-law in Kazakstan was telling me about how they used a sled at the worksite to move materials around.  He banged together a wheelbarrow out of an oildrum to make their workload a bit easier and handed it over to them.  When he came back from lunch, a small group of workers were huddled around the wheelbarrow with the welder guy, trying to figure out where to weld a flat piece of metal in place of the wheel, so they could use it as a sled.
1.I am surprised that you can't make the correlation that the more time we i.e modern homo sapiens have been around the sooner we would have advanced in the context of civilization and technology.You can site examples of what we know of our history in the last 5000 years to show how quickly we advanced.

2.Long lulls and leaps? There was only one long lull of 1,95,000 years and then a leap in 5,000 years. This suggestion does not establish a pattern but goes against rational thought.

3.Your notions of Human behaviour are very strange, a man could be habituated to dig his nose even 200,000 years back but he probably wouldn't be washing his hands afterwards with a sanitizer. Using the same logic as you have suggested that the way Humans have been innovating in the last 5,000 years,you can claim that we are habituated to innovate and improve wouldn't our ancestors 200,000 years back also have such habits?? what took them so long?

4.All technology and knowledge arise with passage of time,everything cannot be done in no time,so the important factor is time, if you suggest that Humans 200,000 years back
were no different then what we are as far as the psyche is concerned then what took them so long to reach civilization?

5.Critical knowledge my foot,an apple fell on newton's head and he thought of Gravity. What was the previous critical knowledge required for this discovery?

6.The Inca example gives me a stomach ache.....what is the correlation with humans existing in 1,50,000 BC. Maybe they knew how to use the wheel in more ways then we do,and the Incas didn't.

7.People are also innovative and creative and like to explore and have curiosity,depends on nature. You can't be suggesting seriously that our ancestors were so stubborn and used to their way of life that they resisted innovation.....lol


#14    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 03 April 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

'Acknowledging the possibility' does not make something a fact. Actual evidence is what is needed for such a conclusion.

Enough is known about the Dwarka, Cuba and Yonaguni claims versus the actual evidence to effectively dismiss them as misinformation if not outright lies. This is not the basis on which something should be investigated. Actual, verifiable evidence should be what further investigation should be based on, NOT SENSATIONALISM.

In short, "Let's pretend" is not a valid argument.

cormac
There has been no serious underwater archaeological studies in these areas,how can you dismiss them without even looking.
What is actually verifiable evidence according to you? I hope you know that most of our history is based on 2nd and 3rd hand sources or simple put just on what people said....not actually verifiable evidence.
Please put down what is known of these sites that i suggested...other then malicious dismissal without honest inquiry.


#15    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 April 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

There has been no serious underwater archaeological studies in these areas,how can you dismiss them without even looking.
What is actually verifiable evidence according to you? I hope you know that most of our history is based on 2nd and 3rd hand sources or simple put just on what people said....not actually verifiable evidence.
Please put down what is known of these sites that i suggested...other then malicious dismissal without honest inquiry.

Please do your own homework. Willful ignorance is no excuse. These sites have been discussed many, MANY times here at UM.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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