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Wealth Distribution.


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#136    Einsteinium

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:30 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 April 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Societies do not survive and prosper unless they create supportive and interdependent social structures. National solidarity is about ensuring the the society as a whole is healthy enough to give that society a sustainable future. Throughout mans history there is ample evidence that society has supported and nurtured its members in times of illness and hardship - this is the rule - not the exception.

Really its about balance - but at the moment there is little real balance. We live in fractured cells as individuals divided from our society and the consequence is an epidemic of mental illness.
It is true to say that you cannot substitute wealthfare for real "society" - but when society is all but totally broken as a social institution it is an essential prop to prevent total anarchy.

Competition has its place - but it is only a relatively small part of the overall mix.

Br Cornelius

I agree that as a society we need to take care of the ill and help those experiencing hardship, but we also need to cut off the cancerous tumors that grow on society. Communism comes to mind, tumors of horrible idea's that become cancers sucking away the lifeblood of society. Our system should be one that rewards the behaviors that have lead to the greatest achievements and understandings of mankind, and punish or the very least not reward activities that lead to the degradation of society. People who become dependent on government handouts are a very real phenomenon that accompanies the idea's of socialism and communism for example, a phenomenon that degrades all of society.


#137    F3SS

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:37 PM

Society is about serving the needs of others:
That increasing minority is is increasingly dependent on being served instead of serving.

Societies do not survive and prosper unless they create supportive and interdependent social structures:
America has that o'plenty. We spend literally billions every year on supporting those that can't or won't support themselves. It's bred more laziness and self-entitlement attitudes than it has bred prosperity and success. It's been around a long time. It ain't freakin working. It's beginning to break the backs of those who do the work. I'm not entirely against those things. All I'm asking for is accountability and fiscal responsibility. You can't spend your way into prosperity and you can't provide for people to ensure prosperity.

And a world without competitionis a world of mediocrity and monopolies. Competition is everything when it comes to innovation and success.


#138    F3SS

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:40 PM

Einstein, no punishment for degradation unless it's criminal. No rewards are the answer. A helping hand can/should only extend so far. If you're between 18-65 and in general good health there has to be some serious limits on government assistance.


#139    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:41 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 08 April 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

I agree that as a society we need to take care of the ill and help those experiencing hardship, but we also need to cut off the cancerous tumors that grow on society. Communism comes to mind, tumors of horrible idea's that become cancers sucking away the lifeblood of society. Our system should be one that rewards the behaviors that have lead to the greatest achievements and understandings of mankind, and punish or the very least not reward activities that lead to the degradation of society. People who become dependent on government handouts are a very real phenomenon that accompanies the idea's of socialism and communism for example, a phenomenon that degrades all of society.
Communism guaranteed a job for everyone - and delivered. That's not quite your characterization though is it.
Communism is not the solution ... but neither is parody.

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#140    F3SS

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:43 PM

Then how come immigrants weren't flocking by the millions for the Soviet Union and China if communism is such a job paradise?


#141    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:43 PM

Tell me, really, honestly, could America offer a living wage job to all its citizens at this moment in time with its current economic system ?
Be honest now and ease off on the demonizing rhetoric. Unless you have a cure for Americas ill's that actually addresses the real issues its just angry hot air.

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#142    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:45 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 08 April 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Then how come immigrants weren't flocking by the millions for the Soviet Union and China if communism is such a job paradise?
I am not a fan of communism and its obvious inadequacies, but it addressed a real issue which America is fairly woefully to deal with. There is nothing admirable about the example that your country is setting the world and you should realize that and try to think about something a little better for yourselves.

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#143    F3SS

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:47 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 April 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Tell me, really, honestly, could America offer a living wage job to all its citizens at this moment in time with its current economic system ?
Be honest now and ease off on the demonizing rhetoric. Unless you have a cure for Americas ill's that actually addresses the real issues its just angry hot air.

Br Cornelius
Probably not. Is there a country that has 100% employment rates? Do 100% of those jobs scoff at minimum wage?


#144    Einsteinium

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:47 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 08 April 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Einstein, no punishment for degradation unless it's criminal. No rewards are the answer. A helping hand can/should only extend so far. If you're between 18-65 and in general good health there has to be some serious limits on government assistance.

Agreed. I should have worded it as such. Punishment should only be reserved for criminal behaviors. But behavior that unnecessarily drains society should NOT be rewarded.

Cornelius- Sure communism provided everyone with a job, even if it was sweeping the streets by hand, but that is not what I want out of society. We have seen where that road leads, and it does not lead towards innovation, achievement, or wealth equality. I want equal opportunity, not equal pay or equal employment, but equal opportunity to increase my pay, to become employed.


#145    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:49 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 08 April 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

Probably not. Is there a country that has 100% employment rates? Do 100% of those jobs scoff at minimum wage?
Minimum wage is not a living wage for most people and to aspire to a country which pays minimum wage is woeful and an admission of abject failure as a society.

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#146    Einsteinium

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 April 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Tell me, really, honestly, could America offer a living wage job to all its citizens at this moment in time with its current economic system ?
Be honest now and ease off on the demonizing rhetoric. Unless you have a cure for Americas ill's that actually addresses the real issues its just angry hot air.

Br Cornelius

It cannot, and point me to a country that can offer a living wage to all of its citizens. I am offering a cure to America's ills- simplify the system, get rid of unnecessary waste. Get rid of the instruments that are allowing for massive corruption in politics- super PACS for one. Make the system as transparent as possible. We have a right to know where our tax dollars are going. Make welfare about helping people find employment and helping to train people, not a permanent check-in-the mail system. Let businesses and people fail, get rid of unnecessary regulations. Basically reward the right things, and stop rewarding the wrong things.


#147    F3SS

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:56 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 April 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Minimum wage is not a living wage for most people and to aspire to a country which pays minimum wage is woeful and an admission of abject failure as a society.

Br Cornelius
We have minimum wage jobs for minimum wage talent. I worked in a grocery store for several years. There is not a lot of brainpower involved in bagging groceries. There are opportunities abound in the USA. You want to earn a living wage? Aspire to a job or position that has more requirements than being 16 years old. Folks like you that demand an imaginary "living wage" for all jobs never realize that as soon as employers have to start forking out these living wages the cost of everything goes up accordingly and all of the sudden that living wage is once again a bare bones living.


#148    F3SS

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:59 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 08 April 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

It cannot, and point me to a country that can offer a living wage to all of its citizens. I am offering a cure to America's ills- simplify the system, get rid of unnecessary waste. Get rid of the instruments that are allowing for massive corruption in politics- super PACS for one. Make the system as transparent as possible. We have a right to know where our tax dollars are going. Make welfare about helping people find employment and helping to train people, not a permanent check-in-the mail system. Let businesses and people fail, get rid of unnecessary regulations. Basically reward the right things, and stop rewarding the wrong things.
Too bad I can't press the like button all day long. I think a country where you can be poor, literally not work for years or longer and can still have a car, a phone, food, cigarettes, cable and television and more is a pretty damn good place to be poor in.


#149    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:05 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 08 April 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

We have minimum wage jobs for minimum wage talent. I worked in a grocery store for several years. There is not a lot of brainpower involved in bagging groceries. There are opportunities abound in the USA. You want to earn a living wage? Aspire to a job or position that has more requirements than being 16 years old. Folks like you that demand an imaginary "living wage" for all jobs never realize that as soon as employers have to start forking out these living wages the cost of everything goes up accordingly and all of the sudden that living wage is once again a bare bones living.
There are more graduate's packing groceries than you would care to imagine. You imagine opportunities which simply do not exist.
Unemployment runs across all sectors of society regardless of training and aspiration.

You really have a very simplified view of the world.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#150    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:07 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 08 April 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Too bad I can't press the like button all day long. I think a country where you can be poor, literally not work for years or longer and can still have a car, a phone, food, cigarettes, cable and television and more is a pretty damn good place to be poor in.
Carry on telling that the the homeless collecting charity food boxes. Your spouting verbatum an exaggerated rhetoric designed to make you hate those less fortunate than yourself.
There maybe people like you say - but they are certainly not the rule and certainly not the boggy man the Republicans are painting them as.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson




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