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Wealth Distribution.


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#16    Michelle

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:32 PM

May I suggest people google 'from homeless to millionaire'? It happens a lot more frequently than people think.


#17    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:39 PM

View PostMichelle, on 04 April 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

May I suggest people google 'from homeless to millionaire'? It happens a lot more frequently than people think.
Such mythologising is a critical part of keeping the whole show on the road - its the "American Dream" writ large.
The exception doesn't break the rule.

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#18    Michelle

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

Such mythologising is a critical part of keeping the whole show on the road - its the "American Dream" writ large.
The exception doesn't break the rule.

Br Cornelius

So all of the people, I personally know, that have gone from being on public assistance or almost homeless to making a great deal of money are a myth? I guess there are just a higher percentage around here because I know quite a few.


#19    IamsSon

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

It is bizarre to think that you could believe that any one person could have earned thousands of times more than the average working man. has he done a thousand times more work. Is his work a thousand times more valuable.
Are you really this ignorant?  Do professional athletes work thousands of hours more than a janitor at the stadium?  Does Barbara Streissand work thousands of hours more than the sound engineer at her concert?  No to both questions yet Ms. Streissand makes gobs more money than the sound engineer.  Why?  Because people are willing to pay significant amounts of money to hear her sing, but would probably not notice if sound engineer A or sound engineer Z was the one managing the system.  Does tham mean the sound engineers are inferior people to the singer?  Not at all.

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The reality is that almost all of those people were born into wealth and learn't how to use money to make more money. he learnt a set of tricks which allows him to multiply money by slight of hand. He has not worked harder - he has worked to his advantages of birth and initial capitol.
Actually, the reality is that most of the 1% earned their wealth, inheritors make up less than 15% of the 1%.  Source

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Its not begrudgery or socialism to expect that you shouldn't be able to amass such wealth by dint of birth and having the initial capitol. Its living in a system where the rich have defined the rules in such a way to allow them to remain rich and grow richer simply by having money.
It most certainly is begrudgery.  That is exactly what it is, because there are too many who earn their wealth; there are too many who dig their way out of poverty (almost all who do are people who refused to rely on "government assistance" and instead went to work with their hands and/or minds).  Now, if you're talking about Cuba, China, or Venezuela, where a few elite keep the masses poor and stupid while they rob their country's wealth to enrich themselves, then in that situation there is definitelt a great deal of unfairness.

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There is no reward for effort in the American system, otherwise the Middle class would not have seen their wages stagnate for the last 30years whilst the wealthy have seen their pot expand exponentially in the same period.
Are you kidding?  Capitalism is all about reward.  The reduction, if any really exists, is due to governmental intervention, with politicians helping out their contributors.

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Defending the rich at this time is like defending the devil for deceiving the world into thinking he doesn't exist. There are devils and they wear pin stripped suits.

Br Cornelius
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Edited by IamsSon, 04 April 2013 - 02:54 PM.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#20    IamsSon

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:54 PM

View PostMichelle, on 04 April 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

So all of the people, I personally know, that have gone from being on public assistance or almost homeless to making a great deal of money are a myth? I guess there are just a higher percentage around here because I know quite a few.
I wish it was just in your area, but I'm sure you are aware that this happens nationwide.  One of the talk radio shows in our area sent a guy to the unemployment office to interview people.  They ran into a guy driving a Mercedes SLR who was picking up his unemployment check!

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#21    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:01 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 03 April 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Yes, very interesting, but very uninformative.

How did the top 1% EARN that money?

How did the poor end up and stay poor?

How many of "the poor" stay poor because they don't want to actually have to work and know if they remain poor then the government will take care of them?

The video makes it seem as if peple just get money for no reason.  Yes, there are rich people who inherited their wealth, but he majority of t 1% actually earned their wealth.

The fundamental problem in our country is that people are beginning to think they are entitled to the wealth of others.

How many of the lowest of the lower class have a criminal record, a bad attitude towards others and no qualifications?

There lies the real reason for the income disparity - We make our own futures!


#22    RavenHawk

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:04 PM

View Postsupervike, on 03 April 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

I think you raise great points, and I'm not taking anything away from self-made people....but neither is the video.
I got that feeling.  But what "I" thought before the clip was reality.  In terms of the chart in the clip,  does "all of that wealth" benefit this nation better being concentrated in the hands of the few or does it benefit more by being redistributed?  I believe that it benefits us in the former.  Redistribution of wealth just wastes a valuable resource.  If it is concentrated as in investment, it provides a better environment for the individual to succeed on his own.

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It is only serving to show the unbelievably huge gap.  A gap that wasn't there in past generations of Americans.
This is the disconnect.  What does it matter how big the gap gets as long as both are rising?  What would this chart look like if it included the world?  And where would our poorest be located on this chart?

In the ideal, poverty is a temporary situation and should only encompass the bottom 5% in a healthy economy.  The poverty line currently sits at 15%.  But by comparing the 6%-15% to the rest of the world, it's clear that they can still take care of themselves to some degree.  So that raises the question, how much does anyone need to live on?  This chart already shows that it is not very much.  But there is a caveat to this.  At the other end you have the wealthy with more money than they know what to do with.  But the intangible here is that this concentration of wealth allows that poverty line to meander upward and still allow the individual the ability to take care of themselves.  And that's key.  That gives those in poverty more time to pick themselves up and improve their situation.  Without this concentration of wealth, they would end up lingering in poverty.  The question for the individual is then, how does one go get it?  The wealth of the wealthy may dwarf even the middle class but this is a non sequitur measure.

Quote

Anyhow, I only quoted that particular sentence of your post because I think that is a misnomer as well.  We live in a nation of laws and policies, what people think is 'Fair' is completely meaningful.  It is the basis of countless of those laws.  We, the people, are the ones that determine the 'fairness'.
And that sounds like majority rule or mob rule.  You do realize that our Founding Fathers did everything to keep us from being a Democracy?  They knew what Democracies evolved into.  And they warned us about the extremes of Democracy.  Everyone has an opinion of what fair is but the minute it imposes some restriction on someone else, then does it remain fair?

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We don't live in a jungle, where only the toughest survive.
Actually we do.  That is the nature of the beast.  This in not some Socialist Utopia where we are all sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya.  We are hunters and the jungle is where we thrive in.  This is our nature.  Not being corralled like cattle.  Even the inner city takes on characteristics of the jungle.

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#23    Michelle

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:08 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 04 April 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

I wish it was just in your area, but I'm sure you are aware that this happens nationwide.  One of the talk radio shows in our area sent a guy to the unemployment office to interview people.  They ran into a guy driving a Mercedes SLR who was picking up his unemployment check!

Oh no...I'm not talking about that. They needed help at one time, but didn't stay on it any longer than they had to. I'm talking about people that have started legitimate businesses and didn't have a dime to their name. They make a very good living now. We know one guy that used to come by our welding shop picking up scrap parts, that we didn't need or want, to use for his inventions. He now has patents for seven different items and was offered a great deal of money for two of them. He didn't even have a car and walked miles a day to find what he needed for his ideas. His persistence certainly paid of.

Edited by Michelle, 04 April 2013 - 03:14 PM.


#24    RavenHawk

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:14 PM

The one thing about those that inherit their wealth...  If they are not capable of managing that wealth they lose it.  So those that keep it, earn it.  Most of the wealthy came from poverty.  Names like Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Morgan…  Today we have Buffet, Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg.  They realized their skill and talent and pulled themselves out of the mundane.

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#25    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:16 PM

We are first and foremost social creatures who thrive in balanced societies where the represented and the representative can see each other on almost equal terms. It is an lie to say that the social Darwinist view of the world is the only and best way to live - it is more mythology by the people who wrote the rules to make society that way.

Corruption thrives when people become guettoized into rich and poor neighbourhoods and we see our fellow citizens as our enemies.

Br Cornelius

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#26    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 04 April 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

I got that feeling.  But what "I" thought before the clip was reality.  In terms of the chart in the clip,  does "all of that wealth" benefit this nation better being concentrated in the hands of the few or does it benefit more by being redistributed?  I believe that it benefits us in the former.  Redistribution of wealth just wastes a valuable resource.  If it is concentrated as in investment, it provides a better environment for the individual to succeed on his own.


This is the disconnect.  What does it matter how big the gap gets as long as both are rising?  What would this chart look like if it included the world?  And where would our poorest be located on this chart?

In the ideal, poverty is a temporary situation and should only encompass the bottom 5% in a healthy economy.  The poverty line currently sits at 15%.  But by comparing the 6%-15% to the rest of the world, it's clear that they can still take care of themselves to some degree.  So that raises the question, how much does anyone need to live on?  This chart already shows that it is not very much.  But there is a caveat to this.  At the other end you have the wealthy with more money than they know what to do with.  But the intangible here is that this concentration of wealth allows that poverty line to meander upward and still allow the individual the ability to take care of themselves.  And that's key.  That gives those in poverty more time to pick themselves up and improve their situation.  Without this concentration of wealth, they would end up lingering in poverty.  The question for the individual is then, how does one go get it?  The wealth of the wealthy may dwarf even the middle class but this is a non sequitur measure.


And that sounds like majority rule or mob rule.  You do realize that our Founding Fathers did everything to keep us from being a Democracy?  They knew what Democracies evolved into.  And they warned us about the extremes of Democracy.  Everyone has an opinion of what fair is but the minute it imposes some restriction on someone else, then does it remain fair?


Actually we do.  That is the nature of the beast.  This in not some Socialist Utopia where we are all sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya.  We are hunters and the jungle is where we thrive in.  This is our nature.  Not being corralled like cattle.  Even the inner city takes on characteristics of the jungle.

The highlighted bit is factually incorrect. the majority of the population have seen real wages stagnate or decline in the last 30years. It was only be access to cheap credit and morgaging their property that they managed to maintain the illusion of been more prosperous. This ruse collapsed when credit became unavailable due to the credit cruch and many of those middle class people day of reconing came and they lost their houses and their spending power.

The increase in wealth over the last 30years has in real wage terms almost totally gravitated to the top 1% of the population, and the bottom 15% have become substantially poorer.

What do you do with the reality that most people will never be or want to become business leaders. What do you do with all of the people who's jobs have been sent to the far east. What do you do with a broken economy that no longer needs the people it was built on ?

Answer those questions before praising the lucky few who made it big.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#27    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:43 PM

it's not just the usa .. it's everywhere
the goverment benfit from the rich .. the rich benfit from goverment = corruption
the only loser team is the poor in this case

i agree with you Cornelius you're a spot on

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And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#28    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:44 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

We are first and foremost social creatures who thrive in balanced societies where the represented and the representative can see each other on almost equal terms. It is an lie to say that the social Darwinist view of the world is the only and best way to live - it is more mythology by the people who wrote the rules to make society that way.

Corruption thrives when people become guettoized into rich and poor neighbourhoods and we see our fellow citizens as our enemies.

Br Cornelius

Are you a Communist?

'Corruption thrives when people become ghettoised into rich and poor neighbourhoods' - There is no evidence supporting this assertion. We find the USSR had rampant corruption as does present day China.


#29    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:53 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 April 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

it's not just the usa .. it's everywhere
the goverment benfit from the rich .. the rich benfit from goverment = corruption
the only loser team is the poor in this case

i agree with you Cornelius you're a spot on

How is paying a doctor $150k or an accountant $80k a year corruption?

They provide valuable services to society which only a few have the intelligence to do. Therefore we reward them based on their value towards society through a higher wage.


#30    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:03 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 04 April 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Are you a Communist?

'Corruption thrives when people become ghettoised into rich and poor neighbourhoods' - There is no evidence supporting this assertion. We find the USSR had rampant corruption as does present day China.

Am I a communist - funny. just an average Jo who can see things going very bad and a happy future for my children getting harder to find.
Corruption is rampant across America, the UK and Ireland - countries where "wealth" expanded massively among a tiny minority over the last 30years. Last time I looked it was the corruption of the American and UK financial markets which has brought the world economy to its knees and consigned the Western nations to a terminal decline.
You can point the finger at China and Russia all you like - but that doesn't diminish the rampant corruption in you own back garden under your own system.

The evidence of the last 5 years shows that the business community, markets and governments were in a virtuous circle of turning a blind eye to rampant market corruption - and it all happened because it was opaque to society because of a light regulatory touch and a regulator who was asleep on the job, and it is still going on  at a massive scale.



Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 04 April 2013 - 04:11 PM.

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