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Wealth Distribution.


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#46    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:17 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 04 April 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....ntry_comparison (graph about halfway down)

The UK and US (those individualistic rather than communist countries you dont like) have the highest social mobility of all developed countries.
you should read what you source;

Quote

Several studies have been made comparing social mobility between developed countries. One such study (“Do Poor Children Become Poor Adults?")[5][21][22] found that of nine developed countries, the United States and United Kingdom had the lowest intergenerational vertical social mobility with about half of the advantages of having a parent with a high income passed on to the next generation.

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#47    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:28 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

you should read what you source;

Br Cornelius

Yes you quite rightly point out its most of those with a skilled parent who progress up the ladder. This is because parents induct their mentality into their children (as I pointed out a few posts back) and this determines how they see themselves and their life prospects. There is a culture issue here but it isnt the governments place to nanny people.

No where is there any evidence that the reason people are held back is because of corruption. Its the individuals own mindset which is the cause of their problems. For those who have the right mindset we have the fairest most socially mobile state on the planet. The American/British dream is very real and applies to all which is why immigrants flock here by the millions.

Your perceptions are wrong and if you alter them then you'll get somewhere (assuming you arent too old).

Edited by Giant Killer B, 04 April 2013 - 06:29 PM.


#48    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 04 April 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Yes you quite rightly point out its most of those with a skilled parent who progress up the ladder. This is because parents induct their mentality into their children (as I pointed out a few posts back) and this determines how they see themselves and their life prospects. There is a culture issue here but it isnt the governments place to nanny people.

No where is there any evidence that the reason people are held back is because of corruption. Its the individuals own mindset which is the cause of their problems. For those who have the right mindset we have the fairest most socially mobile state on the planet. The American/British dream is very real and applies to all which is why immigrants flock here by the millions.

Your perceptions are wrong and if you alter them then you'll get somewhere (assuming you arent too old).
I am where I want to be and happy with it. Do not assume that yours is the only vision of the future - that arrogance really p***es me off.

Your society and the UK society will be in much worse state to weather the storms ahead than those social Democratic countries which encourage their citizens to acquire the skills needed to make the whole of society work. The dream you speak of is a nightmare of debt and isolation across much of America and the UK and it will turn nasty as fuel prices keep on rising and jobs keep on drifting to cheaper places. we cannot all be CEO's and Millionaires and what of the rest - what of the majority that have been left behind by your Neo-Liberal economics.


Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 04 April 2013 - 06:37 PM.

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#49    iNvRG

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

Lee Doren brought up some good points about this video. About 5:55 is when he asks what most people don't ask and don't want to hear.



Edited by iNvRG, 04 April 2013 - 06:40 PM.

"We as humans believe in a superior being because we as humans can not comprehend the magnitude of our own existence"

#50    Capt Amerika

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:


America is broken.

Br Cornelius

America is Lazy and whiny.

Not all mind you, but enough to make some people actually believe that civil unrest is imminent.


#51    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:50 PM

Lee Dorans analysis seems at best a sniping at the edges of the big central issue of wealth disparity. Lots of hot air without much substance.
take for example his critique of health benefits - it is mostly the wealthy who have the best health benefits which go unrecorded in the wealth disparity accounting. It is mostly the poorest who have no health benefits - the point he raises runs counter to his central thesis.

Many of the other points would need careful investigation, but if he is so wrong on such an obvious fact I would have to question the veracity of the rest of what he has to say.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 04 April 2013 - 06:59 PM.

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#52    CrimsonKing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:52 PM

Lazy and whiny fits the bill!

I train a guy who legally immigrated here from mexico,he is honest,hardworking,and wants to be viewed as an American only.He is trying his best to learn English and has came a long way in a short time,works 6 days a week,pays taxes,feeds his own family,trying to pay his own way through college,and when others ask him what his nationality is,he makes it a very clear point (though in a bit of broken english haha) I AM AMERICAN! I have tried helping him out a few times but he will not allow it,he has always responded "if i cannot get it on my own i will do without."

Would be very nice if most in this country shared his attitude,if so most would actually have something!Many citizens who were born here though keep that hand out as if they are owed gov money and they are owed respect just because of who they are.Sorry but a good way of life and respect are earned not given.

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#53    Michelle

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:54 PM

A tremendous amount of people that succeed in the US are immigrants that don't come from a nanny state country. They didn't have a government to fall back on and don't have the victim mentality which is prevalent in some of our cultures.


#54    RavenHawk

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:57 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

The highlighted bit is factually incorrect.
Actually, you only mean that second sentence.  The rest is a question.  And no, it is not factually incorrect.

Quote

the majority of the population have seen real wages stagnate or decline in the last 30years.
Yes, wages have been pitiful in just the last 5 years but on average they are still rising.  Pitifully so but still rising.  That's not the fault of the wealthy.  That's the fault of a government trying to impose Socialism.  Except for the Reagan boom, that has been the case since Johnson.  Under the Republican Presidents since Johnson, I get a little better off, but during a Democrat's Admin, I lose all those gains and during a Democrat's second term, I lose my job.  So I'm sweating things out right now.

Quote

It was only be access to cheap credit and morgaging their property that they managed to maintain the illusion of been more prosperous. This ruse collapsed when credit became unavailable due to the credit cruch and many of those middle class people day of reconing came and they lost their houses and their spending power.
Because of QE3, credit is plentiful, rates are low.  People lost their homes because they couldn't pay the mortgage and the government forced banks to go against their natures to give out risky loans.  Anyone unwise and irresponsible enough to "maintain the illusion of being more prosperous" earned their ruin.

Quote

The increase in wealth over the last 30years has in real wage terms almost totally gravitated to the top 1% of the population, and the bottom 15% have become substantially poorer.
Of course much of it gravitates to the top.  That is the mechanics.  That is how it is suppose to work.  The rich get richer but so do the poor.  Maybe not as fast as the rich but by the same token, the poor can't just sit there waiting for their pocketbook to grow.  They have to put some effort into it.  How 'bout answering the question of where do the American poor sit compared to the rest of the world?  Our poor can afford anything from shoes to cell phones while the world's poor struggles for a grain of rice.

Quote

What do you do with the reality that most people will never be or want to become business leaders.
Not everybody needs to be a business leader, but if you want to be successful, you need some understanding of how business works.  That's the reality.  If you are so concerned with wealth, you will become a business leader.  Most people just like to work hard and raise a family.  They aren't going to build great wealth but they will be able to give their children a step up, giving them an opportunity to go on and do better.

Quote

What do you do with all of the people who's jobs have been sent to the far east.
I'd ask why?  Well, not really.  The why is obvious.  Between a government over taxing the wealthy and the unions overstating a worker's value, you seriously think that one doesn't know why jobs go overseas?  If it were me, I'd cut taxes and pay workers what they are worth for the job they are in.  And I'd let the market drive what that price is.  If you don't like that salary, then you are welcome to move on and start your own business.  You can take the risk.

Quote

What do you do with a broken economy that no longer needs the people it was built on ?
Then you find the youth of those that it was built on and build it anew with a stronger free market.

Quote

Answer those questions before praising the lucky few who made it big.
I think I have.  That's more than you have ever done.  I'm not praising the lucky few (as you put it).  I think all Americans are the lucky few.  But I do praise that we live in a nation that opportunity is still there.  Opportunity is what breeds success.

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#55    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:00 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

I am where I want to be and happy with it. Do not assume that yours is the only vision of the future - that arrogance really p***es me off.

Your society and the UK society will be in much worse state to weather the storms ahead than those social Democratic countries which encourage their citizens to acquire the skills needed to make the whole of society work. The dream you speak of is a nightmare of debt and isolation across much of America and the UK and it will turn nasty as fuel prices keep on rising and jobs keep on drifting to cheaper places. we cannot all be CEO's and Millionaires and what of the rest - what of the majority that have been left behind by your Neo-Liberal economics.


Br Cornelius

Why get so angry if I'm wrong?

People are encouraged to seek the skills needed for society to work. Again, the UK and the US have the highest social mobility of any developed country. Nobody is preventing you getting anywhere or forcing you to live a deprived lifestyle.

A decent standard of living is acquirable for all of our people and you most certainly dont need to be a CEO or millionarie to enjoy that. You sound like you need a faith healer.


#56    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:07 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 04 April 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Lazy and whiny fits the bill!

I train a guy who legally immigrated here from mexico,he is honest,hardworking,and wants to be viewed as an American only.He is trying his best to learn English and has came a long way in a short time,works 6 days a week,pays taxes,feeds his own family,trying to pay his own way through college,and when others ask him what his nationality is,he makes it a very clear point (though in a bit of broken english haha) I AM AMERICAN! I have tried helping him out a few times but he will not allow it,he has always responded "if i cannot get it on my own i will do without."

Would be very nice if most in this country shared his attitude,if so most would actually have something!Many citizens who were born here though keep that hand out as if they are owed gov money and they are owed respect just because of who they are.Sorry but a good way of life and respect are earned not given.

Most organisations also reward that type of employee with promotions etc. He'll no doubt go far at your place or if not there somewhere else.


#57    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:07 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 04 April 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

Actually, you only mean that second sentence.  The rest is a question.  And no, it is not factually incorrect.


Yes, wages have been pitiful in just the last 5 years but on average they are still rising.  Pitifully so but still rising.  That's not the fault of the wealthy.  That's the fault of a government trying to impose Socialism.  Except for the Reagan boom, that has been the case since Johnson.  Under the Republican Presidents since Johnson, I get a little better off, but during a Democrat's Admin, I lose all those gains and during a Democrat's second term, I lose my job.  So I'm sweating things out right now.


Because of QE3, credit is plentiful, rates are low.  People lost their homes because they couldn't pay the mortgage and the government forced banks to go against their natures to give out risky loans.  Anyone unwise and irresponsible enough to "maintain the illusion of being more prosperous" earned their ruin.


Of course much of it gravitates to the top.  That is the mechanics.  That is how it is suppose to work.  The rich get richer but so do the poor.  Maybe not as fast as the rich but by the same token, the poor can't just sit there waiting for their pocketbook to grow.  They have to put some effort into it.  How 'bout answering the question of where do the American poor sit compared to the rest of the world?  Our poor can afford anything from shoes to cell phones while the world's poor struggles for a grain of rice.


Not everybody needs to be a business leader, but if you want to be successful, you need some understanding of how business works.  That's the reality.  If you are so concerned with wealth, you will become a business leader.  Most people just like to work hard and raise a family.  They aren't going to build great wealth but they will be able to give their children a step up, giving them an opportunity to go on and do better.


I'd ask why?  Well, not really.  The why is obvious.  Between a government over taxing the wealthy and the unions overstating a worker's value, you seriously think that one doesn't know why jobs go overseas?  If it were me, I'd cut taxes and pay workers what they are worth for the job they are in.  And I'd let the market drive what that price is.  If you don't like that salary, then you are welcome to move on and start your own business.  You can take the risk.


Then you find the youth of those that it was built on and build it anew with a stronger free market.


I think I have.  That's more than you have ever done.  I'm not praising the lucky few (as you put it).  I think all Americans are the lucky few.  But I do praise that we live in a nation that opportunity is still there.  Opportunity is what breeds success.

To quote;

Quote

Lisa Shalett of Merrill Lynch Wealth Management, found that,real average hourly earnings in the US "are essentially flat to down, with today’s inflation-adjusted wage equating to about the same level as that attained by workers in 1970", despite the fact that "for the last two decades and especially in the current period", productivity has "soared". The benefits of productivity during this cycle had gone "almost exclusively to corporations and their very top executives."[73]

http://en.wikipedia....Wage_inequality

If America is anything like the UK or Ireland - no amount of quantitative easing has made its way into the pockets of the average jo, its harder to get credit now than it has been for 40years - despite the banks been flooded with free credit. The banks have used the money to prop up their balance sheets and invest in the stock market - with the consequence that the markets are inflating back up into a new credit fuelled unsustainable bubble.

If you can be wrong about such a fundamental fact, what else are you wrong about.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 04 April 2013 - 07:14 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#58    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:11 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 04 April 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Why get so angry if I'm wrong?

People are encouraged to seek the skills needed for society to work. Again, the UK and the US have the highest social mobility of any developed country. Nobody is preventing you getting anywhere or forcing you to live a deprived lifestyle.

A decent standard of living is acquirable for all of our people and you most certainly dont need to be a CEO or millionarie to enjoy that. You sound like you need a faith healer.
Did we not establish that they had some of the lowest social mobility ?

You will tend to p*** people off if you assume that everyone shares your own assumptions  and aspirations and are jealous of what you have.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 04 April 2013 - 07:16 PM.

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#59    CrimsonKing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 04 April 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:


People are encouraged to seek the skills needed for society to work. Again, the UK and the US have the highest social mobility of any developed country. Nobody is preventing you getting anywhere or forcing you to live a deprived lifestyle.

A decent standard of living is acquirable for all of our people and you most certainly dont need to be a CEO or millionarie to enjoy that.

:tu: :tu:

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#60    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:25 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 April 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Did we not establish that they had some of the lowest social mobility ?

You will tend to p*** people off if you assume that everyone shares your own assumptions.

Br Cornelius

No we established the UK and US as having the highest social mobility.

When we breakdown that we find one part of our demographic makeup has very low social mobility. The part that lack skilled parents to which I indicated negative parents have a habit of passing on negative mindsets to their children.

You live in a state where anything is possible. If you put the hard work in you could gain an olympic medal, get a docturate, be a wealthy director or even get yourself elected as an MP. The state is not closed door to people of low social standing.

My advice is to zip-it, pick something you're interested in and go out and raise yourself. You'll end up getting somewhere.





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