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Cognitive dissonance


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#46    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:35 PM

Hahaha yes, the first time my wife carried the shot gun to the house from the rv she tip toed bouncing up and down holding it by the beryl looking like Tom on Tom and Jerry cartoons sneaking up on jerry in broad day light in our front yard. Since then she has spent considerable time at the range.

I'm not opposed to extensive back ground checks, required classes, qualifying tests, even longer waiting periods. Non of these things will prevent a law abiding citizen from ownership if they are serious and willing to train. To get a CWP all of these things are required. If I want one and willing to invest mysekf I can jump through the hoops and get one.

I agree that Australia is more free than the us. I have tried to talk my wife into moving there. I'm a big fan. She won't have it. Then again I tried to talk her into giving up modern convinences and living in a wigwam to. No luck I'm afraid.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#47    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:54 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 10 April 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Hahaha yes, the first time my wife carried the shot gun to the house from the rv she tip toed bouncing up and down holding it by the beryl looking like Tom on Tom and Jerry cartoons sneaking up on jerry in broad day light in our front yard. Since then she has spent considerable time at the range.

I'm not opposed to extensive back ground checks, required classes, qualifying tests, even longer waiting periods. Non of these things will prevent a law abiding citizen from ownership if they are serious and willing to train. To get a CWP all of these things are required. If I want one and willing to invest mysekf I can jump through the hoops and get one.

I agree that Australia is more free than the us. I have tried to talk my wife into moving there. I'm a big fan. She won't have it. Then again I tried to talk her into giving up modern convinences and living in a wigwam to. No luck I'm afraid.

LOL most of Australia is more civilized than living in a wigwam, although  I and my wife (when a bit younger)  have camped out under the stars for months at a time, on a simple piece of canvas, in places where  few if any other humans have ever trodden That lack of population, especially, in most of Australia is another aspect of the freedom of the pace, although you can also live in the very centre of cosmopolitan cities if that is your preference. Can't stand it myself, and havent been into a city  for nearly 10 years, and only then for medical or work day trips. I can travel form one side of australia to the other and back without ever having to identify or explaoin myslef But try to hop on a plane and you feel like a criminal so i do not fly by commercial airlines. If i want to go somewhere  I can hop in a friend's  light plane and no one will ever know where I am going.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#48    AnotherCrazyGuy

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:51 PM

Hi!

I am new here, and I have to strange and/or relatively unknown things to discuss about this cognitive dissonance and religion topic, which may be of interest to some of you. Is anyone still interested in this thread?

Regards, ACG


#49    Arbenol

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:25 PM

View PostAnotherCrazyGuy, on 09 June 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Hi!

I am new here, and I have to strange and/or relatively unknown things to discuss about this cognitive dissonance and religion topic, which may be of interest to some of you. Is anyone still interested in this thread?

Regards, ACG

Welcome to the boards. You don't need to ask, just throw yourself in and tell us what you think.


#50    AnotherCrazyGuy

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:01 PM

View PostArbenol68, on 09 June 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Welcome to the boards. You don't need to ask, just throw yourself in and tell us what you think.

My concern is that all kinds of ideas pop into my head from time to time. And about all sorts of things, some of which have been mentioned in this thread. I am not concerned about being seen as crazy, but as I am new here I am VERY concerned about being seen as pushy and trying to push a personal agenda, instead of seeking a wide range of feedbacks. about my unconventional ideas.For example, I've written a free ebook that explores the possibility of a GNOS (God and/or Nature's Operating System). Admittedly, a crazy idea, but associated with many well-known and little known factoids. And it includes references to Leibniz and to Godel (the Incompleteness Theorem mathematician) who was sure that there was a conspiracy to suppress many of Leibniz' ideas. It looks to me that this kind of stuff is okay to talk about in this thread and on other parts of this forum, BUT I am not sure what to point to and when. As I said, I am VERY concerned about wearing out my welcome..


#51    Sherapy

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:56 PM

View PostAnotherCrazyGuy, on 09 June 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

My concern is that all kinds of ideas pop into my head from time to time. And about all sorts of things, some of which have been mentioned in this thread. I am not concerned about being seen as crazy, but as I am new here I am VERY concerned about being seen as pushy and trying to push a personal agenda, instead of seeking a wide range of feedbacks. about my unconventional ideas.For example, I've written a free ebook that explores the possibility of a GNOS (God and/or Nature's Operating System). Admittedly, a crazy idea, but associated with many well-known and little known factoids. And it includes references to Leibniz and to Godel (the Incompleteness Theorem mathematician) who was sure that there was a conspiracy to suppress many of Leibniz' ideas. It looks to me that this kind of stuff is okay to talk about in this thread and on other parts of this forum, BUT I am not sure what to point to and when. As I said, I am VERY concerned about wearing out my welcome..

Start a thread on the topic, I  for one would be very interested to explore this further what is your E-book called? Welcome to UM Another Crazy Guy.

Edited by Sherapy, 09 June 2013 - 10:56 PM.


#52    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:23 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 05 April 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

FYI, the command in the Bible is "you shall not commit murder".  It is not "you shall not kill".  

Funny you should mention this.. I was watching ( for the 100th time ) the movie - The 10 Commandments  ( Charlton Heston ) recently...and I always loved the part where Heston Moses goes up the mountain and receives the ten commandments from the finger of God...

Here is a short clip...



Right before you hear God calling out his 10 commandments, he sounds like he is stuck for words, all you hear is - I AM.....I AM....I AM....It's a wonder moses didn't say - Well come on then you are what?  lol  :P ...You will notice the voice of god saying - Thou shalt not kill..

Growing up I always heard it was - Thou shalt not kill ...I think people changed it because of killings done in gods name etc.They felt killing should be justified or whatever the case may be....I'm not sure what or why to be honest.. But there is useful info about it all in here if you are interested - > http://en.wikipedia...._shalt_not_kill

I looked this up too, from the King James bible, it too says - Thou shalt not kill  -> http://biblehub.com/kjv/exodus/20.htm

There is a list of the  different bible versions that say either do not murder  and Thou shalt not kill  in here -> http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-13.htm

I am not here saying you're wrong PA, I am just pointing out what others read is all...A lot more read what you have posted..

EDIT...Anyone else watching the short clip of the 10 commandments remember one thing - This does not constitute as proof for God  lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 09 June 2013 - 11:30 PM.

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#53    AnotherCrazyGuy

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:49 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 09 June 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Funny you should mention this.. I was watching ( for the 100th time ) the movie - The 10 Commandments  ( Charlton Heston ) recently...and I always loved the part where Heston Moses goes up the mountain and receives the ten commandments from the finger of God...

Here is a short clip...



Right before you hear God calling out his 10 commandments, he sounds like he is stuck for words, all you hear is - I AM.....I AM....I AM....It's a wonder moses didn't say - Well come on then you are what?  lol  :P ...You will notice the voice of god saying - Thou shalt not kill..

Growing up I always heard it was - Thou shalt not kill ...I think people changed it because of killings done in gods name etc.They felt killing should be justified or whatever the case may be....I'm not sure what or why to be honest.. But there is useful info about it all in here if you are interested - > http://en.wikipedia...._shalt_not_kill

I looked this up too, from the King James bible, it too says - Thou shalt not kill  -> http://biblehub.com/kjv/exodus/20.htm

There is a list of the  different bible versions that say either do not murder  and Thou shalt not kill  in here -> http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-13.htm

I am not here saying you're wrong PA, I am just pointing out what others read is all...A lot more read what you have posted..

EDIT...Anyone else watching the short clip of the 10 commandments remember one thing - This does not constitute as proof for God  lol

For what it is worth, B-M, when God Answered Moses, I am inclined to think He was making a pun.  My reasoning is this...

The Hebrew was Yeyeh Asher Yeyeh, which in English is I Am That I Am. The reason that I take those words to be a pun is because at that time and for all I know even now the name for a tree in the Egyptians' sacred groves was asher. As Moses was raised in the Court of the Pharoah, he probably had a good laugh about that. BTW, sorry to be a source of such trivia, but I am a nut who has spent over forty years coming upon such factoids. -( And, rightly or wrongly, as I am now 69 years old and not in great health, before I move on I have put a lot of things like that in a book for anyone who might want to know things. Things that most people could not care less about. Especially from an old crazy guy.


#54    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:04 AM

View PostChloeB, on 05 April 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

Can someone explain to me why or what the connection is with people who are most passionate about their freedoms, their right to bear arms, on and on and on about not getting their guns taken away, are the first ones to be more than happy to demand freedoms  be taken away from others because they object to it based on their "belief in the bible"?  How hypocritical is it to demand and claim you are entitled to the freedoms that you want for yourself and you seem to understand that, but for someone else, their rights are not near as important?  And I'm surrounded by these people and more than fed up with them and to try to reason with them and they've got their bible, nothing else matters that you say, no amount of reasoning and I read something today and I think this is the core root of it:  "If you can reconcile all the direct kill orders God gives in the bible with 'Thou shalt not kill', you can rationalize anything."  And it's true, to be on board with that belief, you absolutely have this sort of cognitive dissonance ingrained within you or it would crumble and there's just no hope in trying to reason with a person who holds on to that so dearly.  I used to defend people who believe in it, live and let live, everyone has their right to their religious beliefs, but these people I'm taking up for are the same people who are so quick to rip away rights from other's that I care about, and it's not the other way around, but they play victim and say don't stereotype me for my beliefs, but what you can't get through their thick heads are their beliefs are fine for THEM, they have no business saying their beliefs in a very questionable book has any bearing on anyone else, but THEM, the person who freely chooses to follow and gamble on that book being truly of God.  I'm done with it though, I'm convinced the book and the belief is toxic and the cognitive dissonance required to follow along with it warps people minds and maybe some good has been a result, but I think people are capable of that regardless and when it comes down to it, I think the world would be better off without it, period.  I'm convinced of it now.  I think trying to reconcile things like God saying kill, kill, kill and then thou shalt not kill has poisoned people's mind at a very fundamental level until they can justify anything when they have convinced themselves God is behind them.  I'm done, when you start using your freedoms to rob other's of their's, I hope your's is the one that goes away and yes, I'm mad, forgive me for the rant.

Chloe, I can sum  those people up in a single word - SELFISH... Want their rights but will use those rights to rip other people chances away from having rights...   Seems to me that these people you speak of like to use a bible to excuse their own selfish behaviour.......    I take it you are in Texas?

It's amazing how in different parts of the world, Christians can act somewhat differently...Over here, the Christians are more laid back and I find easy going, and this is a country that is mostly Christian...

Surely not every Christian who lives there would act that strongly?

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#55    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:11 AM

View PostAnotherCrazyGuy, on 09 June 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

For what it is worth, B-M, when God Answered Moses, I am inclined to think He was making a pun.  My reasoning is this...

The Hebrew was Yeyeh Asher Yeyeh, which in English is I Am That I Am. The reason that I take those words to be a pun is because at that time and for all I know even now the name for a tree in the Egyptians' sacred groves was asher. As Moses was raised in the Court of the Pharoah, he probably had a good laugh about that. BTW, sorry to be a source of such trivia, but I am a nut who has spent over forty years coming upon such factoids. -( And, rightly or wrongly, as I am now 69 years old and not in great health, before I move on I have put a lot of things like that in a book for anyone who might want to know things. Things that most people could not care less about. Especially from an old crazy guy.

I thought God was just building himself up for giving his powerful commandments... OR  He forgot what it was he was going to say at first.. More like - I  AM... I AM.. ( where was I?..Oh yes ) I AM  THE LORD..BLAH BLAH  

I AM....I AM...I AM ...Just pulling your leg AnotherCrazyGuy :P

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 10 June 2013 - 12:12 AM.

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#56    AnotherCrazyGuy

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:23 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 10 June 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

I thought God was just building himself up for giving his powerful commandments... OR  He forgot what it was he was going to say at first.. More like - I  AM... I AM.. ( where was I?..Oh yes ) I AM  THE LORD..BLAH BLAH  

I AM....I AM...I AM ...Just pulling your leg AnotherCrazyGuy :P

So they were BOTH stuttering?

:-)


#57    Paranoid Android

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:30 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 09 June 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Funny you should mention this.. I was watching ( for the 100th time ) the movie - The 10 Commandments  ( Charlton Heston ) recently...and I always loved the part where Heston Moses goes up the mountain and receives the ten commandments from the finger of God...

Here is a short clip...



Right before you hear God calling out his 10 commandments, he sounds like he is stuck for words, all you hear is - I AM.....I AM....I AM....It's a wonder moses didn't say - Well come on then you are what?  lol  :P ...You will notice the voice of god saying - Thou shalt not kill..

Growing up I always heard it was - Thou shalt not kill ...I think people changed it because of killings done in gods name etc.They felt killing should be justified or whatever the case may be....I'm not sure what or why to be honest.. But there is useful info about it all in here if you are interested - > http://en.wikipedia...._shalt_not_kill

I looked this up too, from the King James bible, it too says - Thou shalt not kill  -> http://biblehub.com/kjv/exodus/20.htm

There is a list of the  different bible versions that say either do not murder  and Thou shalt not kill  in here -> http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-13.htm

I am not here saying you're wrong PA, I am just pointing out what others read is all...A lot more read what you have posted..

EDIT...Anyone else watching the short clip of the 10 commandments remember one thing - This does not constitute as proof for God  lol
When I think about whether a passage should be translated as murder or kill, I find it better to go back to the original language, rather than rely on an English translation.  In this case, the Hebrew word used in Exodus 20 is:

רצח
râtsach
raw-tsakh'
A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

And just to double check, in the New Testament Jesus repeated the commandment about murder in (among other places) Matthew 19:18, and the word he uses is:

φονεύω
phoneuō
fon-yoo'-o
To be a murderer (of): - kill, do murder, slay.

Now to contrast this with other places where God orders people to kill others.  To use one example, Ezekiel 9:6 shows God ordering the destruction of Jews living in unrighteous, unrepentant sin.  The word used in the text is a different Hebrew word than used in the list of the Ten Commandments, and has at its core the concept of smiting with deadly intent, slaughter.

So with that in mind, the language is definitely clear that this commandment refers to the unlawful taking of a person's life, aka murder.  I know you weren't actively disagreeing with me, I just thought I'd clarify WHY I believe it intends to be murder rather than kill.

As an aside, would you believe me if I said I've never seen The Ten Commandments? :innocent:

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#58    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:50 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 10 June 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

When I think about whether a passage should be translated as murder or kill, I find it better to go back to the original language, rather than rely on an English translation.  In this case, the Hebrew word used in Exodus 20 is:

רצח
râtsach
raw-tsakh'
A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

And just to double check, in the New Testament Jesus repeated the commandment about murder in (among other places) Matthew 19:18, and the word he uses is:

φονεύω
phoneuō
fon-yoo'-o
To be a murderer (of): - kill, do murder, slay.

Now to contrast this with other places where God orders people to kill others.  To use one example, Ezekiel 9:6 shows God ordering the destruction of Jews living in unrighteous, unrepentant sin.  The word used in the text is a different Hebrew word than used in the list of the Ten Commandments, and has at its core the concept of smiting with deadly intent, slaughter.

So with that in mind, the language is definitely clear that this commandment refers to the unlawful taking of a person's life, aka murder.  I know you weren't actively disagreeing with me, I just thought I'd clarify WHY I believe it intends to be murder rather than kill.

Thanks for that PA...  I think that when we were taught ( including a number of protestants over here )  - Thou shalt not kill, we all automatically claimed it means - Do not murder anyone unlawfully..  We all took it that way anyway...It wasn't something we dug into, we just understood it as such.

Quote

As an aside, would you believe me if I said I've never seen The Ten Commandments? :innocent:

Ohh no way?......... I think nearly every Christian  over here has not only seen it ( about 50 to 100 times over ) but we all can act it out... PA it is a powerful film.. It's long yes, but unlike a lot of long winded movies, when you are watching The Ten Commandments, you will not notice the time moving, because it is that enjoyable.. We couldn't take our eyes off it...   A movie of it's age  ( made back in mid 50's ) with the special effects etc used all throughout the movie is very well done...  That is why it is one of the most watched biblical epic movies of all time..  If they were to remake it with the top digital effect they can use today, and if they get it right, it would be awesome....  Read the reviews on IMBD -> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049833/

Also like Ben Hur  and El Cid...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 10 June 2013 - 08:53 AM.

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