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Ancient mysteries revealed in Turkmen desert


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#31    The Puzzler

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:44 PM

All very interesting, I just checked out the Polish site, great images and information, thanks for sharing Abe.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#32    Abramelin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:35 PM

Posted Image
Fig. 1. A detailed view of the Gonur South archaeological complex , Turkmenistan.


Posted Image
Fig. 4. Göl detail from a 15th century east Anatolian rug. After Balpinar & Hirsch, Carpets: Vakıflar Museum Istanbul, Wesel 1998, pl.3

http://www.tcoletrib...58Imprints.html


#33    The Puzzler

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:18 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 09 April 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Posted Image
Fig. 1. A detailed view of the Gonur South archaeological complex , Turkmenistan.


Posted Image
Fig. 4. Göl detail from a 15th century east Anatolian rug. After Balpinar & Hirsch, Carpets: Vakıflar Museum Istanbul, Wesel 1998, pl.3

http://www.tcoletrib...58Imprints.html

Yes, I noticed the same pattern straight away but couldn't tell (in Polish) if the connection had been made, which I guessed it had. Nice pattern.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#34    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:01 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 10 April 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

Yes, I noticed the same pattern straight away but couldn't tell (in Polish) if the connection had been made, which I guessed it had. Nice pattern.

To me the ground plan of the fortress looks a lot like a mandala:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala

(click to enlarge)

Attached File  mandala-newmoon.jpg   38.97K   3 downloads


.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 April 2013 - 06:04 AM.


#35    Frank Merton

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:19 AM

It could be influence or just coincidence; no way to say and no need to anyway.


#36    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:33 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 10 April 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

It could be influence or just coincidence; no way to say and no need to anyway.

These people were in contact with the Indus Valley Civilization (and neighbours). Does a pattern like in my former post show up in the IVC?


#37    Frank Merton

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:39 AM

The thing is I'm sure one could find similar patterns from almost anywhere.  Similarities don't prove much; what is needed is a systematic pattern of similarities and changes following identifiable rules.  It takes years of study to become familiar enough to be able to be sure.


#38    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:41 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 10 April 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

The thing is I'm sure one could find similar patterns from almost anywhere.  Similarities don't prove much; what is needed is a systematic pattern of similarities and changes following identifiable rules.  It takes years of study to become familiar enough to be able to be sure.

But artifacts found in the region of Gonur Tepe showed they traded with the IVC. It wouldn't be a big thing to assume both peoples copied certain designs from each other.

It would be interesting to know if the Hittites to the west knew of them: they (almost) were contemporaries, maybe even related.

But that's just my idea, I don;t know if it's true.

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Edited by Abramelin, 10 April 2013 - 07:07 AM.


#39    TheSearcher

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:52 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 April 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

But artifacts found in the region of Gonur Tepe showed they traded with the IVC. It wouldn't be a big thing to assume both peoples copied certain designs from each other.

Well if they were neighbours and had trade relations that's a given really. The question is to which degree.

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#40    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:53 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 09 April 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

The term Indo-European derives from the fact of the modern-day distribution of the members of this language family.  All modern European languages except Basque, Turkish, and the Finno-Hungarian languages are Indo-European, as well as most of the languages of Iran and Northern India.

There are traces of pre-Indo-European languages in Italy (Etruscan) and in Spain, but the Indo-European toungues dominated when we first get written records.

There has been debate where they originated from and why they came to be so widespread so early.
But why would you include a derivative to represent the parent? Regarding pre Indo-European language in Spain,you would call it ancient Spanish and not Indo-Spanish.
The term Indo-European was used as it was thought that people from around the Caucasus in Europe migrated and populated Asia and spawned the language family,which is not the case.
A more appropriate way to put it would be: all modern European languages accept Basque,Turkish and Finno Hungarian have originated or derived from Asian languages and are called Indo-Iranian etc. (of course according to linguists).


#41    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:56 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 April 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

These people were in contact with the Indus Valley Civilization (and neighbours). Does a pattern like in my former post show up in the IVC?
These people and the harrappans etc represent different cities/kingdoms in the ambit of one civilization in my opinion.
Any clue to what these people referred to themselves as? Not the name given to them by modern day people.


#42    TheSearcher

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:01 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 10 April 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

These people and the harrappans etc represent different cities/kingdoms in the ambit of one civilization in my opinion.
Any clue to what these people referred to themselves as? Not the name given to them by modern day people.

There is no proof of that being the case. Based on architecture alone it might even not have been the case.

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Publilius Syrus.

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#43    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:04 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 10 April 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

These people and the harrappans etc represent different cities/kingdoms in the ambit of one civilization in my opinion.
Any clue to what these people referred to themselves as? Not the name given to them by modern day people.

As soon as they find a form of writing they will know how they called themselves.


#44    Frank Merton

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:15 AM

Calling the language group "Indo-Iranian" (assuming we are talking about the same thing) would be both chauvinistic and misleading.  All linguists I know about call it "Indo-European," but no one thinks they originated in Europe.  The name is geographically descriptive, not having to do with where it came from.

We know very little about the languages that preceded the coming of the Indo-European languages to Europe.  From earliest times the Greeks spoke an Indo-European tongue, as did the Italic and Latin tribes (except Etruscan which was an isolate).  In Spain before Latin wiped them out the Spanish spoke a mix of Indo-European and other unidentified languages, of which only Basque persists.  Modern Spanish, like French and Italian and Romanian and a few others, came much later (during the Middle Ages) out of Latin.  Similarly, English and Dutch and modern German and the Scandanivian tounges (except Finnish of course) came out of Gothic-Germanic.  There were all ultimately from Indo-European, as were the Celtic tongues, Hittite, Greek, Albanian, and a slew of others.

Whether the Indo-European tongues dominated via a mass migration or by assimilation is just not known; probably a combination.


#45    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:25 AM

About who influenced whom, look at this artifact:

Posted Image

Skarb Kręgu Gonur – Bogtoharskie złoto z Tillya Tepe – pierwowzór Zaratusztriańskiego symbolu Ognia i Koła Życia (6.000 p.n.e.)

Gonur Circle treasure - gold Bogtoharskie of Tillya Tepe - original Zoroastrian symbol kiego Fire and the Wheel of Life (6000 BC)

http://slowianin.wor...tag/bronze-age/

Look at the age of the thing: 6000 BC !!

Did I get fooled by Google Translator??





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